Even if 1 auto maker fails, it will set a chain of events that in the end all the automakers will fail.

Part suppliers will not have the money to stay open causing more unemployment.

With the loss of part suppliers, the remaining automakers will have no parts for making new cars. No parts, no work.

After World War 2, the USA had almost a monopoly on manufacturing.

The rest of the nations of the world were either destroyed by war, under communist control, or undeveloped.

We were the only country that could produce things, so our workers had a lot of leverage in demanding high wages and benefits.

Today, our monopoly no longer exists. It just isn't realistic for somebody to expect 50k + benefits for screwing door handles onto pickup trucks. That money has to come from somewhere, and American consumers don't have it.

There is really no viable federal solution.

The author promotes expanding federal bureaucracy to "just put these people in government jobs". Not gonna work--taxpayers can't afford boondoggles just to occupy former manufacturing workers.

We could demonize China, turn all protectionist, and shut ourselves off from the world, but that would be an economic disaster too.

In the world we live in, it's just an uncomfortable fact that you get paid for what you can do. If you can't do something people want, you need to do something else.

We need nurses, dentists, teachers, engineers, programmers, soldiers, doctors, accountants, business leaders, and scientists. Become one.

The federal government can't afford to save you just because you used to have a job in a dying sector.

The problem with this country today is that you have all of the financial assets in the hands of a very few people. These people are on each others boards of directors, giving each other enormous salaries and golden parachutes and pensions, while the rest of us scramble for the crumbs left over. Why the larger funds like CALPERS and NY let them "steal" all of the profits from these companies is a mystery to me. And don't give me that old tired business about needing to spend large sums to keep good people. I can run a company into the ground for alot less than they are asking for.

The original commenter is right that management are the ones to blame for this and that includes concessions made to labor. If labor wages and benefits were unsustainable then it was up to management to put a stop to the show before the entire business collapsed, not after.

Carl W... I disagree with your premise that general labor jobs can't pay a decent wage. They can and should. By raising the wages of our working poor and middle class, we increase the consumerism in this country. That in turn increases the need for more manufacturing which puts more people to work. A major part of our problem is the concentration of wealth at the top that does not make it down to the masses. This wealth is not being used to consume and is currently not being used to invest. The best way out of this mess is to employ the masses and raise their wages. This in turn lifts everyone up.

We do need people in the positions you list but it is not practical to believe everyone can perform these jobs. Service, agricultural and manufacturing jobs are just as important to us. In fact, I've heard arguments made that our national security is at stake if we do not have a firm manufacturing base. There has to be a level playing field for us to participate in the global marketplace. We should reject the cheap products made in low wage countries until something is done to make trade more fair. Being a middle man, selling inexpensive products made somewhere else is no way to sustain our economic advantage.

Something to think about.

I love my Pontiac Vibe. Why doesn't Obammy buy one before he shoots his mouth off.

The propaganda in this country that labor is not valuable is the problem. People state here that WOKING PEOPLE should not make 50K plus benefits says it all.

These same people see no problem with EXECUTIVES raking in hundreds of millions or BALL PLAYERS making 25 million per year. All this while poverty, homelessness, uninsured people and broke school systems in this country keep increasing.

When, WHEN will they wake up? When wages for the majority of the people are stagnated and driven down, you are killing the market for goods and services.

We are now living with the consequenses of the majority trying to maintain their lifestyle with home equity and credit card debt.

he is riding in a GM built car, you dummy.

It's been great for the "masters of the universe" on wallstreet, for the rest of us it's divide and conquer. To paraphrase:

When they took peoples houses thru abusive lending I did not speak, for I did not have a bad mortgage.

When they decimated the wages and benefits of autoworkers, I did not speak, for I was not an autoworker.

They'll be coming for you next, and there will be noone defending you either.

Yes, am very disappointed in what this adminstration is/has done. How many of the 'brightest' on Wall Street have lost their jobs? Auto workers have actually worked, not destroyed the world's economy with immoral games, all in the name of greed.

condew: "Noone defending" me either? what about the true master of the universe, His Holiness The Obama?

The logic behind the UAW that I've heard from some people is: Shouldn't these workers be allowed to maintain a middle class existance? Well, they probably should, but the same agrument could be made for fast food workers. They are just as American as an auto worker, but they make minimum wage. Why, because they are not skilled workers. I'm sorry, but most of the auto workers are not skilled workers. They have split the process of making a car into so many small parts that it's no longer complicated. That was done so they could get by with a workforce with minimal skill. So instead of having 5-10 guys that are highley skilled, you have 30-50 guys that aren't. Thats all fine if they make much less that what a skilled worker makes, but the don't. They make as much if not more, due to extortion and the threat of losing your entire workforce if you fire one gold brick. While making an engine is very complicated, if you make 1 worker's exclusive job tightening head bolts with a preset torque wrench, that does not require skill. It only requires opposable thumbs and the concept of using tools. Now if they had one guy building the entire engine, like AMG, thats worth the hefty price tag an auto worker commands.

One business does not end if the entire auto manufacturing industry gets rocked by bankruptcy. Hundreds to thousands of businesses get ended!

I'd like to see how many ignorant people that will be indirectly, but immediately bankrupted by the failure of the US auto industry are on this board and screaming that GM, Chrysler or the entire industry should fail!!!

It's also funny that these same people will be the first ones to stick their nose up at the korean or japanese car...when that option will be their only option soon!

Can you say "Hyundai?" Can you say "Tata?" Can you say "Kia?"

Can you say poverty?

No, the problem is there is no loyalty in this country to buy American vehicles. That is the #1 reason we find ourselves in this disaster. Us Americans have screwed ourselves. We give the bankers 700 billion and the Automakers only 17 billion and force a man Rick Wagoner out of his job after 32 years. Boy, thats fair. The poor and middleclass in this country are dooomed by bad trade policies and the lack of American loyalty. 64 years ago the Japanese had a plan after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They may have lost the war of guns, but not the war of economics. Paybacks are a son of a b****.

It's about time we stopped being bullied by big corporations. No one ever said it would be easy to change the corruption and greed of the last 40 years. The government finally represents 'us' and should take away the wealth that's come from the theft of our society and prevented an increase in the standard of living for many.

I know the only reason my company treats us OK is to avoid unionization. I've been in the3 executive suite and seen the invitations to the "Avoiding Unionization" seminar.

I think a lot of people who expect raises each year are going to be surprised to lose benefits and be asked to take a pay cut next year.

I think like a lot of the general public, the auto unions and unions in general aren't the only one's losing their jobs. If the Auto Industry would have managed there companies better, do not take lavish trips in the Jets they purchased for fun and pleasure on the tax payers dime then they would not be asking for a handout from the tax payers. Saying that, now lets talk about the AUW unions that ask for everything in the world in pay, benifits and pension plans. Don't get me wrong, I am sure some of the workers do work very hard for their money but paying some of them the money they are making is rediculously over priced all because of the unions officals which live over the pay they make. Most of the Officals and many or all the working unions don't even have a college degree of anything close to it. The reason that are cars cost so damn much money is because of all of these things above. Try to work like the rest of us working people that don't have a pension plan, don't have the our companies pay for all of most of our medical benifits and I am sure there is much more. If you are a auto union member out there, tell me I am wrong and show me a breakdown of what you get payed with benifits and how many vacation days you get payed and the discounts you pay for your cars you make. Your comapny ads finally now says something like you now pay what we pay, why were you getting a better cost than they general public in the first place when you were being payed a damn good wage with benifits. Your just like the airline companies letting there emplyees fly for free, who do you think pays for that, the general public by charging more for tickets and just like the cars; didn't you think this was going to catch up with you guys sooner or later or are you that stupid and that greedy, the story tells itself. Good luck finding a new job and one that pays as well. I hope you saved some of that large hourly wage you made!

This is apparently one of the best kept secrets ever, but the auto industry's employees have been giving concessions for decades now. Another well kept secret is just how hard many of those jobs are and how they wear down your body after awhile. They deserve a decent wage. Don't kid yourselves people - you're already feeling the effects of the auto industry's decline and it's only going to get worse. Think about the amount of money and jobs that industry - both the companies and it's employees - generate. Think about your higher health insurance rates because the insurance companies have to make up that lost profit somewhere, the increased state and local taxes, and all the other lost revenue that is going to die with the loss of the working middle class.

I really don't understand the amount of satisfaction so many people seem to have - just jealous that they couldn't get one of those jobs I guess. And no, I don't work for an auto company - I work for a law firm (which, by the way, has lost clients due to the closing of GM plants), but I do come from an area which will be completely devastated without help. If it was your family that was hurting, you wouldn't be so glib with your comments.

i think its a real shame that it had to come down to this. but clearly the american people have spoken and the words are clear "produce a viable lasting product or go bankrupt" end of story!

Interesting how the Administration can force out Wagoner at GM but the "Guru's" at AIG and Wallstreet are still captains of their ships...

Go figure....

Do you want to know the entire "situation". Some of these seem to be a non related topic, look carefully. Letter I sent.

Honorable President Barack H. Obama
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Honorable President Barack H. Obama,

These are some of the concerns that are being discussed throughout the internet. I have been carefully researching these concerns, since 1990. Unfortunely, I have previously attempted in many cases to address these concerns through local (City), State, and Federal Government, including the recent Whitehouse Town Hall (as you have seen that was a popularity, not a serious solution forum, like the popularity of the marijuana legalization question). I have added additional details that would not fit into the word count on the Whitehouse.gov Town Hall.

Will you repeal the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (removed the Laws to prevent a Depression) and allowed the formation of the International Swaps and Derivatives Association (cause of the 60-100 Trillion USD "Global Economic Crisis"), and reinstitute the Glass-Steagall Act (prevent 1907 Depression and 1929-1939 Great Depression). I left out the details as to how this eventually caused failures on "Wall Street", "Banking", "Mortgages", "Auto Industry", etc.

You have stated that you want the educations standards to increase. Are there going to be Laws that upset the Teachers Unions, enabling the Education System to "pink slip" lousy teachers. US Education, highest paid, lowest international results, making US Education Non Competitive Internationally.

Are you going to repeal the tariffs and penalties (sugarcane ethanol) and grant "green" $s for sugarcane to ethanol electric power plants. The US Departments (Energy, Agriculture, Trade) sugarcane to ethanol is effective, not corn (UN World Bank). Ongoing at Louisiana (2009) to replace gasoline, successfully like Brazil since 1959, based on Columbian Technology. And the clean burning sugarcane biomasse/biogasse used to generate electricity. Research GM, Ford, VW, Toyota, Peugot Flex Fuel Vehicles at Brazil (over 3 Million E100, over 6 Million Flex Fuel), this is alternative energy (fuel) already being produced and used since 1959. Exisiting Infrastructure, unlike electric cars, hydrogen, natural gas.

Are you going to sign H.R. 1955 or S.1959 into Law, that make any US Citizen (including friends, relatives) a "Homegrown Domestic Terrorist","Enemy Combatant", or placed on "watch lists" (like the Homeland Security Coding of SSSS).

Are you going to allow GM, Chrysler to ask for another 150 Billion USD + the 17.4 Billion they already received to implement their "Restructuring Plans" and close 1/3 US Plants, layoff 1/3 US "Work Force" and keep the China, Mexico, Canada factories.

Do you realize what is going to happen if you decrease the current Defense Budget (as proposed 10%, with Barney Frank wanting 25% (Feb 2009)). Reduction In Forces. This is also going to layoff all the supporting Civilians & nearby towns, cities. 1 Military RIF = 9 Civilian Layoffs. This was briefly indicated by the CBS Evening News pertaining to the F-22 Raptor, "Pricey Jet Fighters Add Up To Local Jobs", 03252009.

Are you going to repeal the 1913 Law that established the Federal Reserve (Private Banks, not Federal nor Government entities). Or put them under the Department of Treasury by "Nationalizing" them, enabling Government Accountability & Responsibility.

Instead of concentrating on failed "Universal" Health Care (British, Canadian (resulting in Health Care Rationing)). How about concentrating on programs that work (Germany, France, "Continental Europe"). This also goes for Mass Transit (maybe redirect GM, Chrysler into rebuilding the US Rail Infrastructure since National City Lines (now NTL) tore it apart to begin with).

Do you realize that when we downsize Iraq, that the Government Owned factories that build US Military Equipment will also downsize (layoff) the number of Civilians needed. And less Oil from the Northern and Southern Iraqis Oil Fields.

Are we going to throw good money into a black hole on green technology proven NOT to work. example: HAWT (Horizontal Axis Wind Turbine), Northshore, Oahu, Hawai'i (NASA Study) and Maui (until the next Hurricane hits). Or invest in technology proven to work, sugarcane to ethanol, Brazil 1959. Louisiana 2009. Hawai'i 1911 (before it was dismantled 2008).

Instead of all those moral waivers (for criminal activities) for new US Military Recruits, how about recalling those US Military Veterans that do want to serve again. And not saying that we are "too old" (indicating experience, maturity). I am a veteran twice. (DELETED IN THIS FORUM). The reasons why many US Military currently on long deployments are committing suicides, domestic violence, murder of spouses, etc. against wives, fathers, boyfriends, girlfriends. This has been going on for centuries. To make this worse, the Serviceman's and Sailors Acts are ignored by the State Family Courts with many service members returning to empty homes, bankrupt, with only the clothes on their backs after deployment. This concerns me personally because I still consider many Servicemembers my Family and I experienced this first hand. Worse yet, the perpetrators got promoted.

How about new Nuclear Power Facilities, even the Environmentalists have back pedaled on this issue. The nuclear power facilities being, generation III or IV, aka "modular" with the French Technology of nuclear material recycling. Example: Louisiana 2009.

Honorable Mr. President and Commander In Chief, I have previously addressed most of these topics, to my State, Congressional Representatives, and to your predecessor, in the form of Cause, Effects = Results with Solutions. Why has nothing been done. Rhetorical question.

Do you understand that the real US unemployment numbers are really insert number(s) ___— x .38 (38%)(for those whose unemployment insurance ran out or stopped (gave up) looking for work).

As the Commander In Chief (CINC). Do you know the difference between "Conventional Warfare" (Iraq) & "Guerrilla Warfare" (Afghanistan,Muhajeen, trained by US Military with Vietnam Experience) against the USSR Elite Conventional Forces (over 101 Divisions,10% USSR GNP) w/thousands in body bags returning to the USSR.

What are you going to do about the Chinese "Sphere of Influence" in Iraq & Iran when we leave Iraq. How will we hold on to the Oil from the Northern and Southern Iraqis Oil Fields w/o the Chinese buying all of it, resulting in $8 per gallon at US.

How about subsidizing (paying for, or a %, not a tax credit) Residential and Business Solar Photovoltaic Rooftop Systems, increase the research for non silicone based solar photovoltaic cells due to the shortage of silicone to construct photovoltaic cells, computer processors, and other microprocessor chips. example: Europe subsidizing Solar Photovoltaic. Also VAWT (Vertical Axis Wind Turbine) not HAWT (Horizontal Axis Wind Turbine), silent, less birds killed, not as much land needed, low maintenance and storm proof.

According to the CBS 60 Minutes Interview (03242009) and CBS Evening News, you indicated that it may be illegal, un Constitutional to impose taxes (penalties) against particular groups of people in reference to the AIG Bonuses, yet you signed the additional taxes against Cigarette Smokers. It can already be said that the Tobacco Settlement Money (result of a Product Liability Lawsuit) is not being used to treat those affected by the Product. Nor are those product users represented in Government, just like those in England who passed the "Stamp Act" (like currently on each pack of cigarettes in most States), resulting in the "Boston Tea Party", "Boston Massacre", "War at the Colonies" (aka War of Independence), "Concorde". Has the US Government forgotten it's Visionary ideals and is now repeating the mistakes of England. Those more ardent (and not very smart) about these matters are advocating sending tea bags to you, to remind you of the "Boston Tea Party" (Taxation) of course this will not happen since the United States Postal Service will screen them out. The smarter ones are going to send you photos of teabags. The worst are advocating requesting extensions to filing their Income Taxes or worse. This includes demonstrations, marches, etc.. I know that this is ludicracy, that will result in US Citizens being placed on "watch" lists. I know that signing the additional taxes on Cigarettes may have been great since Cigarette Smoking is deadly, and that the taxes seem to be going to a cause that is altruistic (Children's Health Care). However, those being affected by the Taxes do not see it the same way, especially when they themselves do not have Health Insurance, and have not been provided for by the Tobacco Settlement Money. If you taxed alcoholic beverages (beer, liquors, hard liquors, etc.), at the same rate (factor) as cigarettes since it has been proven that driving while intoxicated has directly killed more innocent people per year than cigarettes and is a very strong depressant, that would make sense. But also realize that doing this (increasing cigarette taxes, alcoholic beverages taxes) will eventually just drive these businesses out of the US with a loss of revenue forever. This is just a logical Cause + Effects = Results (just like the other concerns above).

I know that in many cases you can do nothing about these concerns. I really do not even think that this will even get to you and will end up with a "Staffer". I just had to do something on behalf of those US Citizens that are concerned about these matters.

Thank you very much,

NOT MENTIONED IN LETTER.

Signing into Law the First half of the Automotive Bill sponsored by the California Representatives, when the second half passes most will not be able to keep their vehicles more than two years old, forcing them to buy new ones that meet the new standards.

I know that most of these problems are Legacy that you inherited. Like H.R 4655, Regime Change, Declaration current War at Iraq, 1998. And what started Iraq. Will the US stop the "Oil Laundrying" by Mexico, Canada, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait. In that they are buying Iraqis Oil for $4 per barrel and selling it at huge profits to the US. This has been going on since the US Sanctions and Embargos, and Food For Oil Programs that eventually lead to the Iraqis Parlement to authorize the invasion of Kuwait to end the corruption while the Iraqis starved. As a result the US became involved with the "Liberation of Kuwait", reallowing this Oil Laundrying" to continue. And afterwards the law, H.R. 4655 being passed as the Declaration of the current War at Iraq, "Regime Change", 1998. I also researched pre 9/11 Venezula and the Oil Corporations attempts to stop the Nationalization of Oil Resources, eventhough they brought this on themselves by polluting (worse than the Exxon Valdez) by Oil Dumping (to decrease supply), almost slave labor. The worst was when they sent in "Jackals" to start a Civil War to replace the Venezulian Government and they got caught (like Bay of Pigs) and were traced back to the US, resulting in the US losing it's 2/3 of Daily Oil Supply from Venezula. This was compounded by Congress refusing to allow the Oil Exploration of the Northern Arctic Reserve (pre 9/11). The only option left Iraq or Iran. As the Georgian (Country) controlled (Oil Exploitation again) Oil of South Ossetia, and Abkhazia were not fully developed.

Too bad. Maybe the union will take it's money and give it to their hard working followers. Yeah right. They are as greedy as the execs. They pretend to care to keep their followers.

If you work in the auto industry, have family in the auto industry, or your job is affected by the success of the auto industry, of course you are upset with the government's lack of support. If you have a failing mortgage or watched your retirement funds drop drastically, you may appreciate the support the government is giving to the banking industry and wallstreet to try to turn it around. But what about those like me... I have a college degree and student loans to pay back, yet make 1/4 the annual salary that the auto makers make (if they truly make the $80/hr many of you have claimed). I have no retirement fund to lose in the markets, yet want to live comfortably when I retire. I have a vehicle, but do not plan on buying one anytime soon. I cannot buy a house because my credit is not good enough, so I pay more for rent than most mortgages. So really, what do I care about either the banking industry or the auto industry? Well, I do care, because our economy is failing day after day. I am under a wage freeze and have heard talk of wage decreases. I have seen many of my closest friends laid-off or their position completely eliminated. Decisions have to be made to stir the economy, to get people spending again, to lift wage freezes, start hiring, and insure the well being of those retired or soon to be. Someone WILL suffer, it is inevitable, but the decisions made have to help the majority NOW. I challenge all of you to drive by your local car dealerships and find ONE dealership with no vehicles for sale. In fact, you will see exactly the opposite, too many vehicles because the American people are not buying or banks are more reluctant to loan the money. I also challenge all of you to look at your retirement funds, look at your parent's retirement funds, or your grandparent's retirement funds and find ONE person's retirement fund that has increased substantially. In fact, you will see the exact opposite, most retirement funds have LOST money within the last year. Let's face it, there is a surplus of automobiles already in the market and manufacturing more is not crucial. Our government does not have an endless supply of money to bail-out everyone. If that was the case, then I want some too. Unfortunately, our government, and we the people, need to invest in solutions that will make the biggest impact and affect the most people in the nearest future possible. And if we all set our bias aside, I think we will find that the current administration is making some very tough decisions to move our country forward and they need all of our support.

I'm an employee of GMC in Michigan. We are not the greedy bastards the media and many others have chosen to present us as. We are just like the rest of you, we want a job that will provide for our families. The fact that we were fortunate enough to get into an auto manufacturer should not be held against us. For the most part, we were just in the right place at the right time.

Many have chosen to demonize us for the money we make, but we pay a price too. For those who work on a production line, many develop physical problems associated with repetitive motion. Those of us who work in the plant have a high divorce rate due to the time we spend in the plant, keeping us away from our families. We are also exposed to hazardous chemicals which take a toll on our health.

Yes, we have a good medical plan, but we have been paying for that too. Why no one has taken the time to tabulate the amount we "contribute" is a good question. It could be that the union and company have no interest in any one finding out! In every contract the 1977 agreement we have part of pay increases diverted to pay for medical benefits. In addition, part of every cost of living adjustment (COLA) has been diverted to help pay for either retiree's health care or ours.

Many also complain that we have a COLA. In many instances we did not get a raise when a contract was negotiated for us. These contracts lasted for 3-4 years. How many people go for 3-4 years without a pay increase? In lieu of a pay raise we got a cost of living adjustment which is tied to the rate of inflation. No inflation, no pay increase.

Many who complain about us are just jealous. You hear "I went to college for 4 years and I do not get paid as much as you do." Well I'm not apologising! The degree you get determines the amount of money you make. A masters in underwater basket weaving will not pay well! Do some research before you go to college and find a program that will have a future and pay well. Many in the media hate us for this reason, others too. The way it is presented in the media amounts to class warfare. In their little world we do not deserve to get paid so much for the work we do. It is also in the government's interest to keep us at each others throats, just to divert attention from what they are doing.

We also get a retirement package. I think I deserve that because of the toll working in a factory has taken on my body. I have COPD (chronic bronchitis) from working in a foundry, scarring on my lungs (nodules), arthritis, I've had total knee replacement. I have been at GM for better than 26 years and am 54 years old. My body is shot, and now I fear my promised retirement will not be there. Where is all the money I made? I have a son who had epilepsy requiring brain surgery, helped put my 3 sons through college, own a modest 1800 sq. ft. home. Now's my time to stash some money and get out when I get 30 years so someone else can take my place in the factory. If those jobs are available, if I see 30 years at GM.

I wish you all well, that's my story. There are many like me in the plants, we are normal people. We don't make $80.00 an hour, I'm an electrician and make just over $32.00 an hour, with overtime I average $80,000.00 a year (gross). Some people were working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day, making $140,000-$150,000 a year, but they are the ones who get a divorce, lose their family, home, and retirement in the process.

ChevsMark, I'm sorry that you are now confronting this at 54 years of age, but most of America has been living in this reality for some time. You are paid for your expertise and for what you produce, not "the toll it takes on your body". We also learned that if our company is not making money, we don't get a raise, even if there IS inflation.

gogolf your absolutely right! this is no different than the greed of wallstreet or the madoff scandal or the collapse of aig. these maggots do nothing all day long until negotiations are needed to workout a mess they got themselves into. i dated a girl some yrs back who's dad was the union pres. for disney's food service workers. he went to the office at 8 am by 9:30 he was teeing off of hole 1. 5 days a week for a cool 250g a yr. these companies have screewed the american people for over 80 yrs. their cars are crap, they dont last. they are overpriced and the fuel millage sucks. if you really look at it these companies spend so much money on changing the looks of the cars and trucks every year its ridiculous. honda and toyo change the look every 5 yrs gm, ford, chrysler evry yr something changes, but you know what the same fuel guzzling emissions spitting crappy engine is used yr after yr after yr. we have some of the brightest engineers in the world and they cant come up with a reliable vehicle that last? gimme a break. what other car manufacturer in the world can give you a 7000 cash back and after 3 yrs your still upside down in the vehicle. its pathetic!!! i cant believe the government even attempted to bail them out the first time. you know the old saying, "screw me once shame on you screw me twice shame on me"

Everyones ignorance of unions is astounding.

It is unions that have raised your standard of living to where it is (or once was), and the demise of the unions will send us all back 100 years into poverty and despair.

Business has always wanted to destroy unions, and now they are succeeding with the help of idiots like you, who are so easy to manipulate. You don't even know what is in your own interest. You drank the kool aid, and you praise how delicious it is as it slowly kills you.

Fool.

jimbo, did they tell you that at your last union meeting? that's the glorified union history, the truth is more about corruption and greed. the last union I was in spent most of its time protecting worthless workers.

Oh yeah - without unions the wheel will uninvent itself and we will all go back to hunter-gatherers. Or we could have robots do those jobs. Or send them overseas. Or....

Do you get the point??? Supply and demand - companies cannot continue to overpay for labor. Pay for performance. And yes, these CEO's who ran their companies into the groud have to go to. Not ALL of them - the ignorant masses seem to be pissed at anyone who makes more than them. But the CEO's whose companies are the biggest offenders (auto, finance) must go.

It´s not one sided: the union may have accomplished in their time more rights and benefits for the workers, but they also were as wreckless and ignorant as the management. They carry also the responsibility of failure. I am sure the union bosses are taken care of...just like the management. For some workers this is a rude awakening...but why? The signs were on the wall! It is certainly not Obama´s responsibility to advocate a taxpayers bailout to a dying and unsustainable industry.

The lack of unions or a diminished union role in business only makes the idea that wealth, centered in the hands of a few, is acceptable.

All of the literature, and anti-union rhetoric is shaped to make you believe that, one day, you might gain wealth that would be threatened by union participation.

The great majority of you will never be wealthy, nor will you have opportunity to come close to being wealthy, no matter how hard you work or how closely you play by the rules. The decreased union participation and union support means that less of you will get into "the middle class."

You're already increasingly reliant upon educated and affluent people like myself. It will only lead to my income increasing and yours decreasing. Even the president knows that the working class in this country is increasingly turning into the working poor! It's funny how you don't see this yourself!!!

The corporations have no loyalty to you or to your country... only to profit.

Wake up!

I disagree whole-heartedly with Jimbo. Jimbo, Unions served their purpose back in the 1920's where there weren't labor laws and OSHA. Now the only thing unions do is breed laziness and greed. There is nothing a union can do for a worker today that can't already be held up by state and federal worker laws. However, what unions CAN do is provide job security for lackluster employees, provide over-pay and become a strain on their employer, who, eventually, ends up bankrupt and out of service . . .hhhmmm . . sounds a lot like the auto industry . . . .

The corporations have no loyalty to you or to your country... only to profit.

The corporations and Unions have no loyalty to you or to your country... only to profit.

Unions have outlived their usefulness. They are no more concerned about the working class than the Big corporations.

I don't blame the unions, I blame the management. Apparently they could not deal in good faith with the workers, open the books and explain what they could pay and why. Management made promises they could not keep.

In addition to those who lose jobs, how many retirees will suddenly find they have no health care or pension? How many retail jobs will go away too, because there are fewer GM workers with money to spend? Michigan will essentially become a third world country. Which state will be the next to fall?

meesteroh i disagree and frankly i think you are a degrading moron to sit here and say that most of the people wont achieve middle class. you may not get there with the attitude you have. big corps are govern themselves the way they do because the american people allow them to get away with it. we keep buying there products and keeping them in business.if everyone binded together and stopped buying a inferior product these companies would be forced to either change their ways or go out of business. i feel for the men and women that are going to lose their jobs or have already but the fact of the matter is money is the root of all evil. unions are no different from big corps " too many chiefs and not enough indians" thats not to offend any indians they got screwed to.

Yes, let's just pay everyone in the US minimum wage, then eliminate the minimum wage. Yeah, then everything will be great!

Fred

Your a Moron to believe that, Unions have been making concessions since the 80's.

No, let's pay people for what they can produce.

If you can produce something valuable, you get paid well. If you can produce education, medical care, scientific research, leadership, or high-tech services, you can be paid well.

If you expect a big paycheck for screwing door handles on a pickup truck, and people aren't willing to pay big money for that, then you need to do something else.

It's a person's responsibility to find out what people want and are willing to pay for and go out and produce it.

I'd like to make 60k + benefits for digging holes in my yard, but if somebody else out there isn't willing to pay me for it, it's not gonna happen.

Really ... let's hear them? I'd love to see the list of concessions the UAW has made over the years to help GM!

AIG ... the face of executive greed ... UAW ... the face of union greed

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the UAW vote for Obama. Now he's the one who is shafting them. Maybe next time you'll think twice before you pull that democrat lever. Also remember it was that great President Clinton that passed NAFTA. Keep voting for these Dems you fools.

When my family is driving down the highway at 70 MPH I like to think the people that built the car were making more than minimum wage.

Sorry 'Not a Republican', but your the moron. The most advanced car manufacturing plant owned by an American company (Ford) is not in the US, its in Brazil. Beause the UAW won't allow one to be built in the US. The UAW's idea of 'concessions' is, we won't extort more from you this year and give you a break. What do you expect from an organization that was literally born out of organized crime.

Fred: I have to agree with you, but that is just a part of the problem. Lack of foresight, poor management and poor quality add to the problem. The collapse of the financial market did not help any either. With the banks and other lending organizations tightening up on the credit market, it has become harder for buyers to get the financing necessary to buy new vehicles. Another problem is the over pricing. The article says that even if GM quit making cars today there are enough cars on the dealer lots to last almost six moths. While my car was in for routine servicing I looked at a new Ford F-250 in the showroom of the local dealer. The price tag was almost $50,000. I can use that money to put a good down payment on a house. How many people can really afford the prices they are asking for new vehicles ? Lower the prices, open up the credit market, improve the quality and they will sell more cars.

Absolutely right Harry! There are only 2 reasons we are paying outrageous prices for our cars; a. big auto greed, b. big union greed. It's time to get back to reality. Bring back the outsourced jobs and give them a reasonable wage. (That goes for 'all' workers.) That will deflate the market for almost everything. The rich won't get richer and the unions won't strike for more than the $80 an hour they are getting today (includes pension, hospitalization, and bonuses) Corruption and greed MUST STOP.

Dave-742309

When my family is driving down the highway at 70 MPH I like to think the people that built the car were making more than minimum wage.

I would rather have mine made by a full automated robotic factory with Quality and Control (QC) on every assembly by laser and not some one trying to get over a hangover (with bloodshot eyes). Didn't you ever hear that you don't want a vehicle made on Monday or Friday from GM, Ford, Chrysler.

Proud Republican

Sorry 'Not a Republican', but your the moron. The most advanced car manufacturing plant owned by an American company (Ford) is not in the US, its in Brazil. Beause the UAW won't allow one to be built in the US. The UAW's idea of 'concessions' is, we won't extort more from you this year and give you a break. What do you expect from an organization that was literally born out of organized crime.

#3.7 - Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:18 AM HST

I usually don't agree with either Political Party, they are all Lawyers (like the criminal defense ones that know their client is guilty). Leave the moron out (non constructive). Most of what you say is true. The other advance robotic fully automated factories (manufacturer parts) and assembly (assemble parts into vehicle) are located in Toluca, Mexico (built using previous US Bailout Money, to "retool"); Machau, China (built using previous US Bailout Money, to "retool"); and Shanghai, China (built using previous US Bailout Money, to "retool"). And yes, it was because the UAW would not allow 21st Century Manufacturing in the US. This also was true about a fully automated experimental ammunition manufacturing plant, due to Union opposition (lobbying Congress) ended up being built in Korea, continuous quality of ammunition "match grade" (rivalling Canadian Match Grade). The current generation of automation are "hot swapped" for maintenance and are fully programable (various functions), designed for 24/7/356 production, in China these are run and maintained by Indians (country India) due to the non competitive US Education System (highest paid lowest international results (standards)(determined by US Corporations). Regarding Unions born out of organized crime. Jimmy Hoffa where are you. How many people have been victumized by "Union Tactics", beating, burning lawns, etc.. And against the enemy (the Company) sickouts, work slowdowns, strikes, etc.

Sorry,

Most of you are talking from a position of complete ignorance regarding what is going on in the world around you.

It is not the fault of the unions that jobs are dissapearing from the USA. The unions did not pass laws, nor did they make trade agreements. Such as:

1) 1964 Lyndon B. Johnson (democrat President) and a democrat majority in the congress/legislature changed tax laws allowing American companies to expand outside the USA and import their goods back here without paying import taxes. This started the exodus of American jobs.

2) Creation of the EPA in 1970 Richard M. Nixon (republican President) and a decocratic congress/legislature created a regulatory industry who's rules are made quite often based on emotion instead of science.

3) Trade agreements such as NAFTA and GATT during Bill Clintons Presidency with a democrat majority in congress/legislature. Plus the other agreements under Pres. Bush.

4) The many feel good laws enacted to please the control freaks that help destroy the manufacturing industry and send it overseas.

What they have done to us is make it impossible to manufacture here through regulations. Never mind that industrial processes are cleaner now, science has seen to that. But in order to improve conditions in X country, we send our jobs there, and gee whiz, they don't have the laws we have here regarding the environment! They can pollute to their hearts content south of the border, so it is cheaper to make stuff there. Then they bring it back here without paying a tarrif.

Yes people, OUR GOVERNMENT HAS SCREWED US! They are the problem, and now they say: "Hey I'm here to help you". "We can fix this"!

I don't know about you, but my level of trust in an institution who has screwed us to make themselves rich, with astounding medical care which make autoworkers medical benefits look primitive, $175k per year, $93k a year retirement and no Social Security tax, the best retirement health care (same as when they are working) for life after serving a term or two! And they have the nerve to @!$%# about auto workers?????

Even though I can sympathize somewhat with UAW workers who didn't know they were demanding impossible promises, it is still not the U.S. taxpayer who is responsible.

I have enough troubles of my own. If a private union demands too much from a private company, the responsibility does not fall to public taxpayers.

Did you ever work for GM? No wander they are broke, the union has been giving to GM for years and the upper management have stole us blind millions or billions in bonuses and fancy jets, high dollar homes. And you have the smart remarks to say they make big pay for screwing on door handles on pickup trucks, you stand in one place for 8 hours and screw on door handles you should try that sometime. Most people say I'm not going to work in a factory and be cooped up all day I'm gona work outside, where are they today broke and drawing the social security that we paid for working inside a factory.

What kind of management agrees to wages and benefits they cannot afford? I don't blame UAW workers for asking for as much for their families as they could get, I blame the GM management for not being honest in the negotiation. I suspect management knew they were destroying the company, but it was all about presenting an argument for their multimillion dollar paychecks and golden parachutes. So now management takes a big check and retires, the workers will struggle to feed their families. Another case of perverse reward systems that only served a few at the top.

7mathew1520 - were you sitting in on the Negotiations. No, you only hear what the Union Bosses told you, not everything that was said especially by the "enemy" (the Corporate Management).

donny,

Wages and health care benefits do not determine the quality of a vehicle. I don't see how you could possibly leap to that conclusion.

What determines the quality of a vehicle is the quality of design, the fit of the metal, the quality of materials and toleranced used in assembling them.

What increased demand for foreign vehicles is something that no longer exists. The decrease in quality of parts and engineering by the Big 3. The only reason people prefer foreign now is perception thanks to a media who hates anyone who makes more money than they do.

Right now GM has more than 20 vehicles in production that get better than 30 mpg. Do you hear that from the media?

I completely agree. It's standard business practice - if you want to make a profit and keep your business running then you must make a product that people will continue to buy. If you make a shoddy product, people will not continue to buy and the business must either make changes or go under. I didn't see the government bailing out other industries that have fallen by the wayside due to offering a product the people do not want, why is this any different. The auto industry made their beds, now they must lay in them. Toyota and Honda are wonderful cars (albeit a bit more expensive) being produced in the US and they are not asking for money. Why? Because they make a quality product that people buy. That is true capitalism, speak with your wallet. As they say in the addiction world, let them hit rock bottom. I think that they will make the major changes when they see there are no free handouts or they will fail like every other business that refuses to change with the public buying demands.

Sorry, but in combined sales until recently American companies sold more vehicles.

It is inferior quality.

International Fault Tolerance = .5mm goal of .4mm

Including GM Opel, Ford AG, Chrysler AG, NOT AVAILABLE IN US.

US Only Specification Fault Tolerance = .7mm

US Only Specification cannot meet the more stringent International TUV Safety Standards nor the EURO 5 Emission Standards. And requiring Waivers resulting in non competitive US Products. I know first hand when I took my US Only Specification Ford to Europe (different bumpers, different glass (non fragmenting, shrapnel like handgrenade on US "Safety Glass), different headlights), etc.. Before some one argues. Here is a GM Opel example (have to love the US Media Censorship, especially US only publications, since their advertisers are, you guessed it, the ones they are writting good reviews on, in other countries this is considered illegal):

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=81&docid=50345

This has been going on for decades. US Only Specification and International Specification (not available in US).

Also as noted by post#3.10 it is that the UAW is not allowing 21st Century Manufacturing in the US. Meaning that US Manufacturing is stuck in the early 20th Century while the rest of the World moves into the 21nd Century (including 3rd World Countries, like Brazil), with experimentation to move towards the 22nd Century.

And yet we bail out the big banks!

The simple fact is that in the auto industry as well as the banking industry there are plenty of the "Little guys" just waiting for their chance to show what they can do. I say let the big guys fail if they are going to and let the little guy have his chance. You might be surprised what the little guy can do!

You haven't diven an American car lately have you, they are great. And tell my has the Unions have made concessions to save their companies in the 80's and more in the 90's haven't the price of the car come down? It is GREED of the Companies not people whom are trying to make a living.

American cars are better today than ten years ago. I hope to save up for a new Chevy in the next few years.

It really doesn't matter what concessions unions have made or not made. If people don't want your cars at the price they're selling at, they won't buy them.

It seems the UAW thinks "If I make some concessions, the government should bail me out". This is not reality.

I have to disagree on the American cars are great comments. I bought a Dodge Charger.. a couple years ago 2006, and don't say just because it's Dodge it was gonna happen, but anyways shortly after I purchased it, it started making whistling noises. After awhile the air conditioner started running not so cold air, then just this year it started leaking transmission fluid.

And I'm only at 14,000 miles.. Maybe I just got a lemon :Rolls Eyes:

Anyways from now on I'm buying foreign cars.

Also, the whole situation is of GREED. Corporate and Workers. There is no happy medium. I'd say it's mostly the UAW though because they are very similar to toddlers. They will basically cry until you give them what they want regardless of how it affects the parent's feelings.

Your Dodge must have been built on a Monday or a Friday.

I had a 2 year old Dogdge blow a head gasket. I've owned a Ford, a Chevy, an Oldsmobile, and Dodge. All were 2-3 years old when purchased and none "lived" longer than 5 years and who knows how much money was spent on reapirs for each one. Currently own a 10 year old Nissan and have only need to put gas in it and change the oil. I will not be purchasing an American vehicle again!

The stories about American cars falling apart are not unusual. I have a 2 year old GMC SUV that has needed a new transmission, brake pads twice, new serpentine belt and hoses, a flush of the cooling system and the replacement of a window motor. (I only have 16,000 miles on it) Thank goodness I spend $1500 ++ on an extended warrantee.....I'm sure it would have cost me more than that to keep it running. Real garbage.

My Aunt just bought  a Chevy Impala In Feb. 09  I took her for 300 mile trip last week in my 05 Toyota.  She commented on how quiet and squeak and rattle free my Rav4 was, even after 4 years of NY pothole hitting driving. That her new Impala with 1000 miles on it, has three squeaks and rattles that is already driving her nuts, and at 68 it will be her last car that she buys.  So ya GM is building a better car now a days,  That would have been 10-15 squeaks and rattles 10 years ago.    LOL ! 

I have a 91 Cad. 158K miles, runs great never any problems just normal mainenance, a 90 Lincoln town car 163K miles, same thing, 96 Chevy 1500 4X4 148K miles wouldn't trade it. 89 Jeep Cherokee 189K miles never any problems... oppps sorry had to replace the catalitic converter this year. My grandfather always told me if you want to get the best from something you have to treat it as the best. I you have a three year old Charger with 14k and average driving miles are 12k a year then your not taking care of it and letting the seals rot from not being driven enough to properly lubricate the engine.

If you look at post#8.1.

This is why there are problems. Fault Tolerance is the measureable factor of Quality.

The larger the Fault Tolerance, the larger the gaps between parts, requiring spacers, gaskets, shims, etc. to take up the slop. Result squeeks, rattles, oil leaks, etc..

This was trained to the Japanese, Germans, etc. by American W.E. Deming. And completely ignored and hated in the US, while being worshipped internationally (like the Deming Quality Award, this includes the foreign divisions of GM, Ford, Chrysler).

This is why it is a myth that the parts suppliers are the same for both the US and "Foreign" Automakers. It was the US Autoparts makers that stated that they could not achieve .5mm fault tolerance (and laughed at the foreign automakers) resulting in the foreign automakers establishing Parts factories in the US: California, Oregon, Tennesse, Texas, Washington, New Mexico, Arizona, Louisianna, Ohio, Mississippi, Kentucky, Alabama, Georgia, Nevada, Virginia, Indiana (2008), etc.. The profits from sales remain in the US and reinvested as learned in US Business School, taught by American W.E. Deming. example: Dec 2008, Honda Indiana Plant/Factory. 2009 Toyota, Mississippi Plant/Factory. versus GM, Ford, Chrysler, 2009, closure 1/3 US Plants, layoff 1/3 US "Work Force" while retaining Machau, China; Toluca, Mexico and Shanghai, China Plants/Factories these foreign plants/factories were built using previous US Bailout Money. Reason that they will do this is to become "economically viable" irregardless of the effect to the US. The cost to implement the 2009 Restructuring Plans is approximately 150 Billion USD +17.4 Billion USD. The casualities will be more of US Citizens, unemployed.

Also because of the US Corporations pushing Congress thru lobbists the passage of 1994 NAFTA, other Free Trade Agreements, and ammendments (especially the Congressional Representatives from Michigan) this resulted in "outsourcing" to Mexico, Canada, and China (Factories built using US Bailout Money since the 1970s to "retool") to escape the high cost of US Labor to be "economically viable", profitable to the shareholders. This resulted in the US Military not being able to award lucrative contracts (continuous income) to GM, Ford, and Chrysler under the Law "Buy US Only Products, Goods and Services", GM, Ford, Chrysler, thumbed their noses at the US Military Contracts and stated they could do without them. This forced the US Military to reopen the "Cold War" Era (1959-1990) Government Owned Government Operated and Government Owned Contractor Operated Nationwide (almost every State) Dispersed (due to Cold War threat of nuclear war) Factories (Manufacturing) and Plants (Assembly) to build US Military Equipment; and also buy those taps, dies, tools, machinery peculiar to those pieces of US Military Equipment. Example: M1 Abrams Tank, turrent ring cutting machine, that rotates the entire turrent (tons) vertically while cutting the turrent ring. MLRS (tracked vehicle section). HMMWV. Previous CUCV. And most of the other mobile weapons platforms. Most of which were designed by GM, Ford, Chrysler pre 1980s (pre 1994 NAFTA)(some say "obsolete", I could go off topic about what the state of the art and modern stuff is, that would fill this entire forum).

The repercussions of US withdrawal from Iraq will make the layoffs at these GOGO and GOCO Factories/Plants make the layoffs at GM, Chrysler look like a bb (from a bb gun) compared to a thousand pound boulder. This was implied (only a small fraction) by the CBS Evening News, "Pricey Jet Fighters Add Up To Local Jobs", 03252009 and my previous post (letter to President) #1.19..

I did not mention the US Contractors that are so hated by so many. These came into existance after the President Clinton Reduction In Force of the US Military, that cut the US Military to the bone. Resulting in the US Military losing it's capabilities for Logistics, Transportation, Human Intelligence (HUMIT), Food Service, VIP Protection, Water Purification, Training, Maintenance, other previously "organic"(internal) assets, etc. and the expensive US Contractors filling the needs (like US Citizen Only Truck Drivers, $200,000.00 per year (probationary, first year, afterwards pay increases)). Guess where the money paid to the US Contractors goes, US Citizen Employees, and then back to the US. Only few millions actually goes to the countries Iraq and Afghanistan of the billions of USD.

Sorry just the facts from following the money or being involved with "things" (especially the US Military) that you are not normally allowed to see or know.

I don't think the auto workers knew. I'm not trying to say they're clueless or ignorant...but, well let's face it, that's what i'm trying to say. They probably saw the bosses making big bucks everyday (including those like Wagner) and figured if they're doing so well, they should get a piece of the pie too! AND why shouldn't they. I blame everyone; the managment could have humbled themselves a long time ago and took major pay cuts to salary and benefits, the UAW would have had to follow suit. But everyone is greedy, the managment kept putting out gas guzzling SUV b/c of the profit margin, didn't matter that Asian automakers started to think with their brains and not how much they can put in their wallets. The autoworkers just did as they were told, make this 10 mpg monstronsity and you can keep your $80/hr job...the management just didn't tell them how long they would be able to keep that job.

Don't worry about the Hummer.....China is bidding for it! They want to build military vehicles for their armies right here in the great USA. How many UAW workers will be hired by China?.....None.....unless their demands for wages and perks come way down.

Fisherman144 - Don't worry about the Hummer.....China is bidding for it! They want to build military vehicles for their armies right here in the great USA.

Two different vehicles. The "Hummer" that you are discussing is the Commercial version. The commercial version "Hummer" parts are Made In China (Machau, or Shanghai).

The Military Versions are built at Government Owned Government Operated or Government Owned Contractor Operated Manufacturing Factories and Assembly Plants. The only similarity is the name HMMWV. Even things like the electrical system are different voltages.

Add to above post #14.2

Made In China (Machau, or Shanghai).

Specifically, Dongfeng Motor Corporation.