Should New York ban shackling pregnant inmates during childbirth?
IMHO, jail should suck big time, and prisoners should lose all rights to anything. No TV, weights, phone calls, or ability to file lawsuits. Nothing, nada. It should be the worst experience of their life so they never want to go back, and warn others about it as well.
#1 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:19 PM EDTSo Pirates,if you were convicted of a crime you didn't commit (which happens often) you would not want to be able to appeal your conviction,even if you found proof later that you were innocent?
No Jim, Pirates needs to be out on the open see by him/herself. She doesn't belong in America where people actually have RIGHTS.
Amazing. It would be great until YOU were taken into custody because YOU looked like the person we were looking for! YOU would be locked up and NO APPEAL? YOU would be screaming for your rigyhts. It is PEOPLE like you who have the better than thou attitude who are putting this country into what Hitler himself had... weed out the one's you don't like under the premise of calling them bad and throw away the key... hell, let's just kill them all... RIGHT?
I hope to be on YOUR jury!
I don't care much about prisoners rights, but the safety of the baby should come to people's minds. If the woman giving birth is a non-violent offender, I don't see why they would need to be shackled. What if there is an emergency with the birth? You would have to waste time unlocking the restraints before the doctors could perform surgery.
How about no mattresses, sinks or toilets? Just a bucket on the floor and possibly a straw mat.
Yeah. Wait, what year is this? What country do we live in?
Gee! Where do these prisoners get all of those "rights" they gave up when they did the crime? And, "innocent" prisoners"? Sure, about one out of several million! Change your own sheets, bedwetters. We are a nation of laws. Take it or leave!
I think you've taken the story a bit far. They are shackled as prisoners are when they walk around. They are not put in an Iron Maiden and tortured while birthing. Guess it depends on the story each of us read. If you believe prisoners are being tortured and it should subside during childbirth...you're kind of sick...it should be banned period! If they should be shackled while walking around, then being shackled in childbirth is no more in the way than it ever is...I don't believe they shackle you down there.
I wonder if they stay shackled when they go to the bathroom. I wonder if men do? I think we can each make up a story and respond to it. If you are a prisoner, you have restraints. You people are thinking like law abiding citizens, and no law abiding woman should be in restraints while in childbirth. These are felons who had sex. Neither the baby or the mother is any more at risk with or without restraints. You can say she/the baby is, but it doesn't make it so.
Pirates, On one hand I agree. Prison is a punishment however, there are already way too many mentally ill inmates crammed into our prisons. Your ideas would only create more. Much more attention needs to be paid to education, drug treatment and programs which stress personal responsibility and conflict resolution. We need to look at what has brought many people to prison and address these issues if we want to reduce recidivisim. In many cases the breakdown of the family, poverty drugs and a violent street culture are at the roots of incarceration. Eventually a lot of these current inmates will be released into our cities. They need life skills and the tools to have even a small chance of not falling back into the prison system.
Picture a 9-month pregnant woman trying to break out of prison. Such a scene would be futile to the point of being funny. If a pregnant woman wants to escape from prison, she would do it before she is to large and off-balance to run, and long before she goes into labor.
#2 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:26 PM EDTPicture a 9-month pregnant woman trying to break out of prison.
Its not really about her breaking out, a lot of the inmates that assault officers don't have any chance of escape but they do it anyway. I'd be much more worried about her grabbing a needle etc and stabbing someone than her getting out. The officers and medical staff should not be put at an increased risk for injury just because the lady is having a kid.
Most of you bunch of morons must be men. Obviously you have never given birth. This country is supposed to be for the humane treatment of all prisoners. We tout ourselves as the icon for the whole world and yet we advocate straw mats and buckets for prisoners? We say "Let 'em give birth on the floor of the cell"? Where does this malice come from? Shackling women in labor harks back to the middle ages at the very least. What does it matter what the woman did? I doubt seriously anyone would get pregnant just so she can commit a crime and plot an escape during labor and delivery! Do you people belong to the Taliban or Al Qaida? You sure sound like it.
If the woman is a "violent" offender then absolutely YES!..the decision should be a made on a case by case basis.
#3 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:53 PM EDTsheplover
I agree with you. Should be a case by case basis. If they are violent than absolutely.
Common sense tells me that any violent prisoner that attempts to escape, hurt staff, herself, or the baby needs to be restrained. But, metal chains and shackles are arcahic. Also, to just automatically put all prisoners in restraints seems avoidable. Most women that go to the hospital in labor are usually far enough along in the process they pretty much become incapacitated or are given medication that prevents them from going anywhere. In addition, the amount of violent pregnant prisoners cannot be so high to mandate all prisoners must have restraints. Case by case seems more appropriate. Never having been a prison staff worker, I respect that they must have some experience that gives them cause to worry about their more violent prisoners. In these predetermined individuals case, hospitals have "soft" restraints and medication management that help patients calm down and become more cooperative. Yes, this is not in the best interest of a healthy baby, but the prisoner has the choice on how she wants this to go down. If the prisoner has a history of violence against staff and other inmates, doctors and staff need to be protected. The prisoner has all the control in her hands. If she doesn't want restraints, she needs to behave herself and earn the right to a restaint free birth. But to reiterate, it needs to be a case by case evalutaion process.
I agree that if you have an issue with the being shackled at all let alone during childbirth, then you should of thought of that long before you were in this situation. It's not the country club, your own personal birthing room with family and friends, you are in a detention facility because you broke the law. The sad part is you broke the law with no regard to the unborn child that you were carrying. So you made your bed lie in it. Be thankful that you don't have to pay the medical bills! Maybe if it weren't so "normal" to be in prison then people would think twice, but then again probably not. Everything is taken care of food, a place to sleep, relaxation, not one worry about dinner or kids; no cares at all just. CHILDBIRTH IS A BEAUTIFUL EXPERIENCE, UNFORTUNATELY WASTED ON THE WOMEN THAT FEEL IF IS OKAY TO BE IN PRISON IN THE FIRST PLACE.
#4 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:54 PM EDTYou are a judgemental idiot. You have no reason why these women are in jail. Being unshackled during childbirth is a lot different than being in a country club. They do not even compare. Our judicial system is completely unbalanced and unfair. One woman may get a judge that is a complete jerk and she is thrown in jail when another woman only gets probation for the same offense. By the way, women in jail still have worries and cares. They don't become inhuman as soon as they are arrested. You are an ignorant woman. You give women everywhere a bad name. Shame on you.
You are assuming that the woman is guilty! If you were taking into custody because you looked like the person we were looking for (but you were not!) and I pressed hard to get the media to show what a criminal you are because court is coming up… and we find you guilty… well I guess we shall take your baby from you because you are such a terrible person.
AND, what if you were guilty. The baby should pay for your mistakes? Great. Great thought s like this and we will be back gassing people left and right.
you shouldn't have to be in jail. it's pretty easy to stay out of jail if you do the right things. If you do the crime, you do the time. Our judicial system isn't unfair. in your example you forgot to mention if they had any prior convictions and if they feel sorry for their crimes. there are a lot of factors.
any inmate who has to go to the hospital is handcuffed or restrained in one way, so there shouldn't be an exception for childbirth. some moms don't care about their babies and will just leave them and escape as soon as possible
they're inmates for a reason.
Actually, if the woman is in jail for murdering a boyfriend or husband who physically abused her or a rapist, she shouldn't be in jail - she should be free! She made the world a little better for women, especially those that might have eventually crossed pathes with the a****** if he were still alive.
Actually, Meghan, our judicial system is extremely unfair. Remember when the state of Illinois put a moratorium on executions because DNA evidence was exhonerating those who were on death row? Why is it that minorities and the poor are so disproportionately represented in prison populations? Hint: it's not because they commit more crimes.
women are also disproportionally jailed for violent action against men than men to women
Hmmm...where do you people get your information? They do commit more crimes...it is more available to them. Not a great picture of our society, but there is much more opportunity and benefit from committing a crime in the inner city than in a suburb. If you don't think you have any way out, then it really doesn't matter does it? Look at violent crimes (or even car theft) in places like Compton and then look at Beverly Hills. Advantage for minorities and poor are a quick increase to status or income, whereas the rich would not benefit from holding up a liquor store for $100. Benefit vs. risk. Per capita, they do commit more crimes.
Rarely do women get jailed for violent action against men (especially in domestic violence). The guy did something to this victim causing her to have to respond with a knife to the arm. However, it is getting to the point where "looking mean" is considered domestic violence, but only if a man does it. The woman has a very good reason. Regardless of the system and who gets jailed, if you are jailed, you are an inmate. As long as it doesn't interfere with the childbirth, they should be treated in the same manor as another inmate who didn't get pregnant. Think of it this way, the mother gets pregnant and then without any regard for the child commits a felony and is sentenced to a prison that requires one to be shackled. Who are we blaming for this again?
A shackled woman giving birth...what a grotesque picture. But I think the "correctional" facility staff who are responsible for monitoring the pregnant prisoner should make the call.
#6 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:05 PM EDTThis should done on a cases by case basis for violent offenders. If she has half of brain she would know that a woman in labor is not going to get very far.
#7 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:09 PM EDTIf the woman is going to be restrained at all, it should be only one wrist...not her freakin abdomen. This can be extremely traumatic for the woman and even dangerous for the baby. Most women are in jail for non-violent reasons. This is absurd that they should be treated WORSE than animals. Unless the woman is deamed to be an extreme threat to others, herself, or her baby, she should not have any restraints during childbirth.
#8 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:13 PM EDTI am a proponent of keeping a person who is violent under the least amount of restrictions as possible. I am not saying that there should not be any restrictions whatsoever. However, a human being is still a human being. Babies will be born while their mothers are in custody because a woman can get pregnant prior to their crime.. (or their boyfriends crime) and when the male guards have sex with the female prisoners.
I am glad that angelsamongus1278 states his/her case. We need to truly remember who we are… Humans.
It does put the staff and the baby at risk to not restain. To start with the women is not in prison because she made wise decisions. The other factor is that this is a policy that has been in place for many years and has not seemed to have harmed the baby or we would have heard about it. Inmates will jump at every oppurtunity to call attention to them selves or to make a cause that people will jump on. I'm sure that they are using standard restraints that there could be a restraint system made that would satisfy the security requirements. I work as a Correctional Officer and I see a side that most people can not even imagine. Sure there are some good people in our prison system that just made a stupid mistake but there are some real knuckle heads in there to, and you can't always tell one from the other. Public saftey, Staff safety, and Inmate Safety should always be the Correctional Officers main priority.
#9 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:14 PM EDTbaby safety 1st, medical staff 2nd, correctional staff 3rd - as much as she had a choice about crime, the correctional staff are paid for the risk of contact with offenders and could have chosen a physically safer profession.
GK....these women don't turn into saints just because they're giving birth...and a lot of them are very nasty! Safety for the staff first....the baby will be fine, placed in foster care, inherit the criminal traits of the parents and live on our dime for the rest of its life.
Whoa, you are nasty Sheplover! As a teacher, parent, and foster parent I am glad I am trying to be part of making sure this doesn't happen rather than letting someone like you convince me there is no hope for these people and their children. Hopefully, you are the minority for this opinion because these prisoners and their children need more than your "do nothing" thoughts and sentiments. It is easy to sit back and appraise the situation when you are not part of the solution!
well, I've worked with the mothers. I stand by my statement...just because you have the ability to get pregnant means nothing and doesn't make you special. In most cases there is no help for many of the kids...but I pay my taxes so you can get your check and try. Good Luck!
It is wrong to do. If you think an inmate should be shackeld during childbirth something is wrong with you, and obviously you haven't experienced labor. I have been through labor twice and the pain is so excruciating.. I highly doubt a women would be capable of escaping during labor-you cant even hardly walk. And correctional staff are trained to deal with dangerous people out of shackels! If they cant do their job then they are in the wrong profession. Hello people think about the babies and the mothers healthy delivery. criminals have certain rights because they are still people regardless of their crime or mistake.
#10 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:18 PM EDTmaybe they should put the "mother" out...deliver by c-section, then shackle her back up.
Well to be quite honest, shouldn't they take her to a hospital to the nearest birthing center where she can get the most up-to-date medical treatment. I mean, what if the baby has a problem that only a prenatal surgeon can handle? How about we give them the choice of a state-of-the-art birthing center or using a midwife in a field of daisies in the middle of Iowa.
They are inmates! People yes, but inmates! There is nothing medically wrong with the way they are delivering babies and if they want to have a baby differently, perhaps they will think about it the next time. It is not dungeons and torture devices people. They are not waterboarding mothers in prison. They are restraints, there to protect the officers, the doctors, the mother, and most importantly, the baby. What if the mother is enraged and does try anything at all? Who is the smallest and most defenseless one in the room? Sure the guards can take care of themselves, but think about it. Sheesh! Seriously.
I dissagree brittany there are much much less of a person than me...,but for arguments sake,why should a criminal have more rights than a person who is not a hardend criminal?
If a woman in jail is giving birth it should be the warden's decision on restraint and reviewed by the prison board yearly wether if warden is making proper decisions. Non-violent inmates a no brainer!
#12 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:19 PM EDTI would challenge every MAN who has stated "Keep her shackeled" to give birth. Then tell me how they think. They should be ashamed of themselves.
#13 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:20 PM EDTWhat a sad and stupid question. If the prison staff can't control a pregnant inmate, in the throes of childbirth, without chains and shackles, fire them and hire competent people to take their place.
This isn't giving solace to criminals, it is refusing to descend to their level. Oh, and our prisons are working out great aren't they. Take a look at California. They have gone from the lowest recidivism and repeat violence rates to among the highest since they "cracked down" on their prison population, costing billions of dollars in property loss and damage and more and more killings and maimings on the streets.
#14 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:27 PM EDTWomen who have gone thru childbirth know that the last thing on their mind is escaping. All the men who think shackling a woman around the abdomen should have a football or basketball implanted in their stomachs then watch them pass the ball through their rectums while their abdoment is shackled to see if they like it.
#15 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:30 PM EDTYou try passing a bowling ball while shackled, or clamp your privates in a vise for 24+ hours, then I'll listen to whatever you have to say.
#17 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:40 PM EDTThey should just sedate them and remove the babies to deprive the mothers of having the experience of giving birth. These people are violent criminals in a maximum security prison and deserve nothing but the ability to breath... and maybe watch some TV during the day so they don't go crazy.
#18 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:42 PM EDTYou are a total idiot. Give them a tv, but not human rights. What a MAN.
BOB... what if they come in pregnant? I mean, what part of the human experience are you missing?
No not at all. The point is, can correctional staff maintain a human female while in childbirth?
I was in prison myself. Most guards are great people with a good heart. They are held by LAW to restrain the prisoner/patient with metal mechanical devices such as handcuffs, ankle restraints, waist chains, and other devices. Their decision to full restraints is dictated by law because of a VERY FEW individuals who made someone uncomfortable because of the way they scared them (Read: Staff.)
People go to prison as punishment… not for punishment.
Did you not read the article? The woman mentioned in the begining was in jail for violating parole, which resulted from a drug offense. Translation: She was a non-violent "criminal."
Bob 633124--who said they were violent criminals? That's not what I read. You are not too swift on the uptake, are you?
A felon is a FELON. Being pregnant does not erase that fact. Although imperfect, our prison system is better than those in most places in the world. Our criminal justice system has a protocol for treatment of felons, and apparantely that includes shackeling. Shackeling around the abdomin seems unnecessary in the case of a pregnant woman, but certainly a single restraint on one wrist and/or ankle during the delivery would assure prison staff they had her in their control. Doubtful that a woman in delivery would try to escape, but don't second guess a convicted felon. They could still grab an object and injure someone. Use of shackels during labor and childbirth should be made on a case-by-case basis.
#19 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:47 PM EDTHave you ever even been inside a prison, jail, or correctional facility? I doubt it.
First of all, who said that all of the women who give birth in prison are felons? Is it possible for this to happen to a woman who has been convicted of a misdemeanor? Further, suppose the woman has been arrested for something and cannot make bail? Suppose she is innocent of the crime for which she has been incarcerated? Do you know how easy it is to be caught up in this system? Some people are more at risk than others. The practice is simply inhumane.
Well, let's think about this logically outraged...it is a State Prison we are talking about. People who get misdemeanors go home with a fine. Who does that leave? Traffic ticket violations? Jaywalking? Public nuisance after 10pm? You're right, those people shouldn't be in prison. We need to start a public opinion scare now! Help keep mothers who accidently walked acrossed the street out of prison so they don't have to have shackles! My goodness, the humanity. Imagine if that story had been published. Most of you people would have been up in arms! 43 women gave birth in prison (so the story says) and none of them were injured. Hmmm...sounds like we need our politicians spending a lot of time on that. The economy? It can wait, help these innocent mothers who are being attacked while giving birth. Wait a minute? Was that the story?
At least it wasn't the story of the mother who was so outraged that she required the officers to hold her down so she didn't injure the newborn. Oh, did I just create a story and show how inhumane it would be to the baby NOT to shackle the mother? Seems we're all pretty good at this. We should probably halt the economic efforts and have a national debate about this.
This sounds like something out of "Kafka". This sounds like new York State and the rest of the states are still iving in the medieval dark ages. This is what you would expect in places like Buchenwald, Ausschiwtz,Treblinka, Bergen-Belsen but not in the "so-called" land of the Free. This is just another hidden example of how far behind the US is from the rest of the world and how barbaric the US is to the rest of the world. Only Communist and Tyranical despot led countries still use the death penalty as well as the US. The death penalty should never be used since there is always a chance the person is innocent. State sanctioned murder is what the death penalty really is. So a woman is in prison for something she did, does that mean she should be treated like a "cow" giving birth chained to an operating table. The NAZIS removed womens ovaries by tieing them down and cut out ovaries of women without anesthesia. Boys and men were castrated by the NAZIS without anesthesia. Isn't the US supposed to be a little more humane then the NAZIS. Cannot a women in prison have some "dignity" in her life? The "lame excuse" Its Procedure sounds vaguely like the SS of NAZI germany that the fuehrer said "It had to be done". (referring to the extermination of Jews, Poles, Germans who disagreed with the Third Reich, Russians etc.). What kind of a country is this? After reading this I am ashamed that I was born in this country. When the rest of the world hears about this what will be their opinion of the US? We talk a good game but we are inwardly no different than the other tyranies in the world. No one seems to know how prisoners in Vietman were treated. They had water poured into their lungs while they knelt on the ground to drown them. They were also taken up in helicopters and tossed out to fall to the ground to die. And Mr Bush has the nerve to say we do not torture prisoners.
#20 - Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:50 PM EDTwhoa John, have you seen the conditions of women's prisons in other countries....how about Afghanistan, India, Pakistan,Saudi Arabia...etc. Get a grip, our jails and prisons are the Hilton in comparison. What country are you moving to?
The pregnant women in our prisons should have chosen their paths a little more carefully....aside from the prisoners that are raped....but then there is always abortion.
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