If it's about "human dignity" and you so strongly feel it's worth the lives of young Americans to enforce "human dignity" in Afghanistan,

Then walk the walk. Start packin' and get YOUR butt over there asap.

Go to somalia, iran, north korea or swat valley and run your "human dignity" and rights speech past those nuts. Your be nice to everyone and they'll be nice to you pipe dream caused us pearl harbor, wwII and 9/11. People in these countries want to kill you simply because you're an american, they don't want to talk, sit down and hug or anything. Its kill them first or they will hit us again. They desperately want to set off a nuke in america. Wake the hell up! The marines are dying and serving this country every day so you can go on and on with your love beads.

Are you all nuts? Really I am asking earnestly. There are places around the world just as horrible as Afghanistan and have been for many a year. What has happened is the media has placed a face on the country and we all bought in to saving them all. Off we go peace keepers of the world la, la la! Maybe we will be seen as liberators, yeah that worked out well in Iraq, a place where most US. school kids can't place on a map. It is sad, it is bad, no I'm not talking Afghanistan, I'm talking about the USA. God we are so arrogant it's sickening!

never go into a fight trying to make it fair but overwhelm your opponent and show all other potential enemies how bad it is to get in a fight with the US

We have no war with them, time to come home. We cannot fix all of the problems in all of the countries in the world and its about time we realize it. War fixes nothing except more money in the military industrial complex. We have serious problems at home and we need to devote our resources there, for generations to come. We lost so much in so many ways in the last 8 years; it will take generations to fix that.

We went to Iraq for oil, not for human rights. If we had gone for human rights, we would also be in Darfur, for example, but we aren't.

And, since we went for oil, then we have to stay until we have access to that oil forever, cause only then will the mission be truly accomplished.

Let's not try to fool ourselves. It was ALL about oil, all the time.

Walk the walk? I served - what about YOU?
BTW - we have a VOLUNTEER military - capiche?
And this has almost NOTHING to do with Iraq.
And Iraq was NOT about oil - stay away from the koolaid dispenser.

Watching the pachyderms:

My son IS over there. Without our efforts the election would have been a disaster and bloodbath. Remember Pol Pot? The Taliban have just as much respect for life and education.

However, we have the best trained, motivated, best led, and best equipped troops in human history.

Remember that the Taliban stop fighting when it gets cold (and it gets really cold in Afghanistan)?

Our soldiers won't. And that's when the "turkey shooting" will begin.

'Nuf said.

Watching the pacjyderms....how do you know that's not a soldier you're speaking to?

Dear Terry Gould, what are you doing here?

just make it a real war and whip their butts or get out.

Doctor Larry I too served and you are so misinformed about the ties between Iraq and Afganistan that you must be from the bible belt, and listen to rushie poo and beck n call, and pobably think palin has a brain.

Red - you are wrong on nearly all counts. But that seems logical.
I am sure Palin has a brain - not at all sure about you.

Oh - and exactly where did I discuss ties between Iraq and Afghanistan (do learn to spell, OK?)?

Hey "watching the pachyderms"

I served in the US Army from 1992-2000 as a medic. I have a metal from the 1st Gulf war as we were stationed in Saudi Arabia. I understand my comments may upset you, however, I still support those men and women who come home. I still treat them in my office and veterans hospital today..... but I seriously doubt that's why you're upset... in fact I don't think much pleases you.... and that's okay with me, 'cause I'm content with the time I gave for my country for people like yourself.

There are many people who vote for others children to join or use "why don't you join" as some pathetic response. This is not Vietnam. When you look at a soldier in the eyes and thank them, remember, they volunteered to serve for every one of you.

The people of Afghanistan are accustomed to their politics and are resentful of our military presence in their country. We would feel the same way, if foreign troops were bombing our country...and marching down our streets. The bottom line is, whether we win or lose, when we leave, the TAliban will be staying. It doesn't matter. THAT's the reason we need to get our boys out of there. It's the twenty-first century Vietnam. Soon, we won't be able to get out. We cannot win there. CANNOT! We can't see who we're fighting because they're hiding in the thousands of caves carved out of the mountains. We'd have to bomb the entire country into oblivion to win there and that certainly would be worse than what we have now. Talk about World War III? Every nation in the world would take sides or be forced to and at the end, nobody would be alive to talk about it.

doc larry, most white wing nuts lovers don't realise how brainwashed they are. so who cares what you think?

Afghanistan is like Vietnam - many colonial powers have attempted to dominate and rule, but none were successful. Afghanistan contributed to the fall of the USSR....

If we stay long enough, it will end us too. No need to occupy any sovereign nation. Leave them alone and protect our people here. Too much neo-con thinking still - "killing them there before they come here..." blah blah....

Afghanistan is a losoe confederation of social groups - and the Taliban was empowered by the Russians occupying the place. Now they are returning again because WE are occupying the place. We can blow the entire country to kingdom come and it will change nothing.

This country doesn't seem to have the money to care for its own sick people and educate its children, yet we think we can afford to rebuild an entire underdeveloped nation? WHY DO WE CONTINUE TO FOLLOW NEO-CON POLICIES?????

The military is honorable - but they ALWAYS think the military is the solution. Our government is civilian - and must assert itself from time to time to reign in the military industrial complex.

Between the old neo-cons and the military - they would have us remain in the Middle East for the next millenium... Our civilian government must turn from these and have our defense policy based on addressing true risks - RISK-BASED, not philsophically based.

Military might cannot win this war anymore than it could win in Iraq. Iraq has two primary ethnicities and three primary Muslim sects. It took 7 years, 4,000 American lives, and walls splitting Baghdad in two to get some form of reconciliation among these three groups. Really it's just a tentative cease fire.

Afghanistan has about double the ethnicities, tribes and religious sects, and lacks Iraqi's reward for co-operation, oil. There may never be agreement among the sects. Let's remember not even the ruthlessness of the Taliban could control the entire country. All this in the greatest narco-state the world has ever known.

There are places around the world just as horrible as Afghanistan and have been for many a year. What has happened is the media has placed a face on the country and we all bought in to saving them all.

Yes, there are places just as or more horrible than Afghanistan, but they're not harboring Osama Bin Laden. Were you even alive in 2001, or have you forgotten that's why we went to Afghanistan in the first place, to oust Bin Laden and Al Qaeda? We bought in to "saving" Afghanistan from the Soviets back in the 80s, did a half-assed job, and now have only ourselves to thank for arming, training and letting the Taliban run the country for 20 years. It's time to do a job right for once, with no bailing out halfway and no interruption to fight illegal wars in countries where we have no right to interfere.

If al-Qeda is still in Afghanistan (which they're not) let them think we've left and have safe haven so they will regroup and then we can take them out with smart bombs instead of vulnerable troops. We are not the saviors of other countries. Let's save our country first. Decent jobs and health care for every American and then we can turn our focus elsewhere.

The terrorists have been waiting for Obama to take office because they know he's a push over. I'd say impeach him but then I'd be called a racist.

No picabo you wouldn't be called a racist, just an idiot. I guess you don't have a 401k, because if you did you'd realize that it's almost gone back up to its original value before Bush crashed the market. Not to mention that Obama with an assist from Paulson brought us back from the brink of financial doomsday, and that job losses have slowed down considerably since Obama's economic stimulus. Not to mention that we'll soon have an intelligent overhaul of our broken health care system with affordable health insurance for everyone. So you would impeach him for what exactly. Doing a good job?

Kudos to Greg 281912 and to OTM..both of you are so right!

Red Dog Red Dog

most white wing nuts lovers don't realise how brainwashed they are. so who cares what you think?

WHAT??? So let me think about this ... If I don't agree with YOU I must either be a white wing nuts lover (you waskely wabbit you!!! ) and/or bwainwashed. Yep! I'm weally wery glad you don't care what I think! EH! EH! EH! It's pwobably a little bit too deep for you!

great point

BINGO. Everybody calling for troops needs to pack a bag and enlist.

In defense of this nation? My granddaughter didn't have to be 'sent'. She understands, "packed her bag" - and went!

My son served two tours in Iraq and we didn't sleep well for the 15 months he was deployed. If everyone had to send a son or daughter or husband or wife to Afghanistan, we'd have a much different dynamic in this discussion.

"gung ho" is as "gung ho" does

I did, 20 years USAF 1970-1990, we need to finnish it, it's nothing like VietNam.

Yes, I would be willing to go into war. I'm a veteran, 22 years, USMC. Would I send my child? I would not oppose my child CHOOSING to go to war, I would pray for their safe return, I would pray that they would take out as many terrorists as necessary to gain victory.

Next idiotic question???

Yes I would go and i did go, 20 Years United States Navy.

And Yes I did watch my Son go off to Iraq twice as A United States Marine.

So many of you seem to be unable to understand that we are not at war with the Afgan people, we are at war with those that want to opress the Afgan people and enforce their religon and law on them with torture and murder. How many woman have to have acid thrown in their face and how many gay men have to he hanged before you understand that the fight is against evil and not against freedom.

My son IS over there. Without our efforts the election would have been a disaster and bloodbath. Remember Pol Pot? The Taliban have just as much respect for life and education.

However, we have the best trained, motivated, best led, and best equipped troops in human history.

Vietnam and Iraq 2003 were "wars of choice." This is a war we can win and we have to win.

"Conservatives only go to war if it is profitable. Liberals never want to go to war." That is partly why Bush and Cheney lied about WMDs and bragged about how the oil revenues in Iraq would pay for the war and ignored the cesspool in Afghanistan where the real danger exists.
Without the lies, we never would have had Iraq-2003, but it is likely that "liberals" would never had supported doing what needs to be done to clean up Afghanistan.
The only way to be "anti-war" on this issue is to drain the swamp so that the Taliban roaches can't come back.

Yes. I have always encouraged my teenage daughter to join the military. Its an honorable profession and will help her be a strong person...inside and out. Her father was in the military during Desert Storm. I was very proud of him.

don't waste any more US lives, send 6 men, 1, B52 and 2 real big nukes, flash, 10 milliseconds later everything is vaporized, let Allah sort the corpses, 5 minutes later, flash, mushroom cloud, and the rest of Afghanistan is vaporized, game over, no US losses, enemy, 100% losses

If this country ever sank that low morally to nuke a nation for the actions of a few jihadist and the tyrants who hide them then I'd be jumping in the fight against that American government.

Been there. done that. got the medal.

Sent my son and an adopted daughter.

Now my Grandson is prepared to go.

When will you learn that in order to kill the snake, you must kill the head, not just take a slice off the tail.........

I am proud of the accomplishments of our troops.

They know they are protecting us by keeping the taliban running and hiding in places where the talibam are familiar with, rather than allowing the taliban to come to the USA to kill us..........

War is definitely HELL! SO, the quicker it ends, the better for everyone. The more you place in action, the quicker it ends.....

I mean no disrespect to people who have served in the military. However, why is it the business of America to try to determine how any other country runs their own country? Except for a small minority, people in Afghan don't want our type of democracy! They have a tribal history, their allegiance is to tribe, not to "nation". Also, the majority of the people are living in stone age, just trying to get some food each day. They aren't capable of caring about different ideologies of gov., and they are muslims. Whoever lets them put food on the table gets their vote. Sure, Americans don't like extreme fundamental muslim judgments and so forth, but what business is that of ours? It's not our country. The Taliban is not likely to be able to afford or organize any serious attacks on American soil. They don't need to, they are growing the poppies and producing the heroin. All our people are doing over there is killing and maiming civilians and especially children, by the hundreds or thousands, just to be able to kill one suspected terrorist! So of course, we are just making the Afghan people hate America more and more. Training any Afghan army is a joke. Read Ann Jones' Kabul in Winter and learn something about the situation.

So you've read about Afghanistan and that makes you an expert? And with your vast Afghanistan knowlege, you've concluded that leaving Afghanistan is a prospect, without consequence. That after all they are too backward and poor to be of any meaningful significance or threat.

I'm not a expert, but my son is. Two tours, 1 Bronze Star (with a V), doing counter insurgency, working with the locals not only fighting, but digging wells for water sources in areas without any water, buiding schools, and setting up Medical Treatment stations, and yes providing the security to enable all that.

His belief is that as Americans, we have won Life's lottery, and that the Afghans want what is best for their families, yes they are tribal and subject to tremedous corruption from their Government. But for the most part, they want some stability and peace to raise their family and live in relative prosperity.

Abandoning Afghanistan, means turnining the country over to the Taliban and ultimately returning to being a resort for Al Queda. If you think this can be done, without consequence for America, you have forgotten recent history. In a world where nuclear proliferation is burgeoning, all you need is a few, "mad men".

What would be the cost of that little mistake?

Read Ann Jones' Kabul in Winter and learn something about the situation.

So, you think one book written by someone who spent 4 years in Afghanistan is all you need to command a complete grasp of the politics, history and society of a country you've never seen? Impressive (although not for the reason you might think).

Remember first why we came to be in Afghanistan. Al Qaeda. It's true that they are no longer there, but across the border in Pakistan where they are not supported by the national government but by local tribal leaders.

We leave Afghanistan to let them sort out their problems. Just how long do you think it will take for the Taliban to retake control of the country then invite Al Qaeda back? Then Bin Laden will have the protection of an entire country. Which he used, by the way, to attack us on 9-11.

No, I think it's time to finish what Bush started. Get out of the illegal war in Iraq and get back to finishing off Al Qaeda.

I did a year in combat in Viet Nam and we never to see to learn. I even went back to pull folks out ofd Saigon. The end result will the same --- when we leace now or in 5 years, the place will go back to some corrupt government. We are not doing anything to improve our security, we are not going to install a "democracy" there, as usual we have too many political rules to limit who/how where to bomb the crap oput of thes folks, etc.....you want to go to war, then go or send your kids or be quiet.

I honestly don't know much about the military, but we should finish what we started.

Vietnam was a disaster because the lies of Johnson were replaced by the lies of Nixon.

The Third Most Evil Person alive on this planet currently is Henry Kissinger.

Sorry Jym, but the Vietnam War was not lost due to lies, but due to restrictions placed upon the military by politicians who did not have the foggiest idea about what it takes to actually win a war. Otherwise, we would have been allowed to attack those cobatants who crossed their own borders to fight us. Since this was the case, we never could actually defeat the enemy where they housed themselves.

Additionally, much like is being spoken today by idiot politicians, proper equipment funding and support was never adequate to provide the necessary combat requirements to support our troops and allies during that period.

Our fighting men did a valiant job in Vietnam even though these restrictions were in place, and we did not lose a war, we just removed the "so called" police protection from that part of the world.

But, I would like you to remember that from that era, came pot-smoking, skirt chasing, politicians who do not accept their job in protecting us. Some of them even have trouble with common vocabulary and comprehension when it comes to "What is SEX!" or "I never lied about my taxes!" or "I was not trying to sell that Senate Seat!" or "I was setup by those other dirty politicians!", or "We are the ruling PARTY, so we will make the rules!" or "I promise that I will not spend more money than I can save from the fraud and overpayements!" or "The change we need is that everyone is the same. This way everyone will be first." or "We must level the playing field, so everyone has the same chance!"

Well, fat chance we will be protected with this political incompetence supporting us.

Besides, if you can't call a LIE, a LIE when it occurs, when do you get to identify the LIAR?

To quote General George S. Patton - "Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men."

Definition of U.S. Politician - somebody whose main political motive is self-advancement and whose methods are often unscrupulous

You are SO RIGHT TAB! and most people today under the age of 40 dont even know that you speak the truth! God bless you for your service!

No, the origianl idea was to go after Bin Laden and destroy Al_Quieda. We let Bin Laden get away and we can never TOTALLY get rid of Al-Quieda. It had nothing to do with the Taliban.

Right, Bush let Bin Laden get away. It is too late to do anything good in Afghanistan. We missed our chance.

No. The Taliban want to bring the country (and the rest of the world) back to the 1300's.

We have to stop them and Bin Laden and keep Afghanistan from falling into the abyss so that Pakistan doesn't fall.

The domino fears of Vietnam were a lie. The domino fears of Afghanstan are real.

Actually, Clinton, not Bush, had bin Laden in our sights and let him go. That is a fact.

Doctor it was BUSH let Bin get away. It is Bush war he screwed it up. He takes ALL the blame. You need to check your facts. Bush was playing president at that time.

No, Clinton had the chance, and the military recommendations, to get rid of bin Laden long before W took office, but he was more concerned with being liked than in keeping the country safe. Bush didn't let bin Laden get away, he never had him in the first place..

They BOTH had a chance, they BOTH failed. Wow, imagine, presidents from BOTH parties failed. Wow, who'd a-thunk?

Because we all have brains, we know how to use them, and we are not afraid to form, express, and defend our opinions (which, by the way, is the ONLY purpose of this forum).

As I posted, my son is "over there" and I know a lot.

The answers "no" and "not sure" are both wrong.

When will you respect our Generals and Admirals who know how to plan a fight to win a war?

If you answer, now! Then you should vote YES because they have stated emphatically that they do need more troops.

Having served under many who still wear the uniform in command, I do respect and accept that they know best how to properly support our children who are there protecting us.

I salute and respect each and every one of them.

Look, we know your son is over there, its exactly why I would say no. And say yes... Afghanistan is a hot topic. I would never send my young child to a war for a country that hasn't shown him the value of the life he has in it. If he/she so chose to go over there on behalf of his country then I thank him. Thank him for doing a job many wouldn't and taking time to see the world as it really is. I say no to sending more troops because like other countries this has failed. I don't want to see young boys and girls sent to fight to the death, I have an uncle over there and I would love for him to come home safely. I say yes to sending more over because unlike Iraq, this war does have several terrible outcomes that could arise if the job isn't finished. Growth an expansion of Al-Queida isn't a great idea atm.

So because of all this I have to say not sure. As for our generals and admirals...They are human beings and like all the rest, they make mistakes. Just because they make a plan doesn't mean it will work or be the right one. We're all entitled to our opinions and there is much to be said over the conflict. I respect the soldiers who decide to put their lives on the line for their country. They spare the many others who don't have the heart to do the fighting or don't believe in it or many other reasons for not joining.

What we all can be sure of is that this will be a drawn out conflict and it will be a costly one to say the least. If greed wasn't an issue in this world we wouldn't be in half the problems we are these days...

"Done" with clearly stated and achievable objectives,

a timeline, and a budget.

No blank-check Vietnam BS.

Exactly, give our armed forces the resources and freedom they need to do the job at hand and they'll be able to put this behind us.

Mike - thanks for you service, stay safe.

The CIA couldn't find a toilet plunger.

See the movie "Air America." I am highly suspicious that drug running is a major source of CIA funding.

Jmy, you must be a 'customer' of that drug running! Get some help!

Give them the troops & equipment they need to FINISH the job...
Make it a giant parking lot...We dont need the opium fields..only the drug cartels do..The farmers are all addicted to the smoking the dope..They grow poppies to feed their kids? How about growing food?
Terrorists know the people are all addicted and they LIKE that very much..It gives them power over them.
This is a nothing but a training camp for terrorists..Let them all meet Allah quickly...

We have the best trained, motivated, best led, and best equipped troops in human history.

Vietnam and Iraq 2003 were "wars of choice." This is a war we can win and we have to win.

"Conservatives only go to war if it is profitable. Liberals never want to go to war." That is partly why Bush and Cheney lied about WMDs and bragged about how the oil revenues in Iraq would pay for the war and ignored the cesspool in Afghanistan where the real danger exists.
Without the lies, we never would have had Iraq-2003, but it is likely that "liberals" would never had supported doing what needs to be done to clean up Afghanistan.

The only way to be "anti-war" on this issue is to drain the swamp so that the Taliban roaches can't come back.

Vietnam could have easily been won militarily. Problem is, politicians (mostly LBJ) tried to run the war and you see what happened.
About 4 good bombing runs on Haiphong and Hanoi would have convinced the NVA to call it off. Every time we bombed Haiphong, they wanted to talk and we stopped. We never carried out our threats, which we should have.
BTW - we DID find 550 tons of yellowcake uranium in Iraq - it was just not well publicized, particularly by the MSM, so the threat of WMD was indeed REAL.

Please cite Larry.

I was in Vietnam 1969-70. 

In Dec 1972 we dropped 40 thousand tons of bombs on Hanoi.  I know that wasn't, as Larry stated, 4 good runs, but these people were fighting for a cause, their country and way of life, and they were not about to give up until you killed them all.  That doesn't sound like victory to me. This is again what we are facing in Afghanistan.  You don't win by killing innocent civilians you only make them hate your occupation of their country and stifle their desire to fight back.... for awhile.  This, while the bad guys move on and regroup to fight again at a later date as we've discovered in Afghanistan.

I work with some people in Hanoi. There are wonderful people and believe it or not they don't hate us. Our corporations are giving them our software engineering jobs.

The Afghans will hate us for centuries (seems to be an Islamic thing).

Dr. Larry, the uranium that was "found" in Iraq wasn't found during the war, or even the first gulf war.

The uranium you're speaking of was from way way back when Israel had bombed a reactor in 1981. It had already been documented and secured by UN weapons inspectors, and was in no way part of some secret Iraqi plot that was going on to restart nuclear weapons at the time of our latest invasion.

There was indeed, NO threat from that yellowcake. You can't make a weapon with uranium in that form.

Maybe "Doctor Larry" is thinking of the gold that Saddam's sons had stolen and stockpiled.

"WMD's" were and are a LIE. Saddam didn't want anyone to know that he didn't have them, however, or he would no longer be as much of a threat and his OWN PEOPLE might have taken him out.

As to the other difference between Vietnam and Afghanistan, the people in Afghanistan who our soldiers are teaching to read (literally) appreciate our being there. It is the illiterate or semi-literate Taliban who hate us.

Like every other attempt to "civilize" Afghanistan since Alexander the Great, the Taliban expect to hunker down and wait out the winter until the invaders leave. Not this time. Heat signatures in cold weather, especially near caves, are just as noticeable as heat signatures of tanks buried in the sand at sunset.

Our guys love cold weather and have the equipment and motivation to be very effective.

"Hunting season" starts in November.