It is no coincidence that most murders are from someone under the influence of drugs or booze. It impairs judgement. Gunpowder is a really bad chaser for booze and I don't oppose anyone drinking or owning a gun legally but not together

Where are you getting your statistics? links? Drunk driving kills more people a day thank drunk shootings...

Calm down people, the bar owners have the option to not allow guns, legally, in their bar. Very, very few will allow it out of fear of being sued.

Meanwhile, all the people who illegally carry guns into bars, and there are a lot of them, will make certain they frequent the bars banning the legal use of guns.

Just a thought, remember Obama's union thugs intimidating people and ruffing up the old guy at the townhall meeting? Remember all the guys legally carrying their weapons at the townhall meeting in Arizona? You didn't see any union thugs intimidating people there, did you?

guns, bars, booze....I used to work in a bar...I am telling you it doesn't matter if they are drinkin or not the two do not mix!

and could you be more Obama hating! I am in a American Union and I am proud to be !

Those carrying the weapons aren't allowed to drink alcohol

Does that mean before entering the bar or just while you are at the bar? Don't you go to a bar to drink alcohol? Will bouncers have to use metal detectors and breathalizers?

I'll wager that young fellow beaten to death on the streets of Chicago the other day would still be alive had that incident occurred outside a bar where guns were permitted. A 2x6 is no contest for a .38! But the mere presence of a weapon, in licensed hands, likely would have ended the entire matter, and that young fellow would have continued home - safely.

the last thing we need is for some yahoo to think he's Wyatt Earp and start shooting people in a fight. That kid didnt need someone with a 38, what was needed is kids with an understanding of the value of a life, and proper upbringing at home. If the parents gave a @!$%# about where their kids were, a lot of senseless beatings and deaths could be prevented.

Hey Lep, I'm on board with the "fix society" plan. I'll do all I can to help because I have kids and (and have tried to instill values in them) I look forward to a better day. Until then though, I think I'll continue to carry my gun (legally, of course). As for the old tried and not so true " blood in the streets" arguement give me a break. I can think of a few legit reasons a person would be in a bar / restaurant (BWH, if you followed the case from the beginning, you'd know that it was originally meant to exclude bars but no one could figure out how to differentiate between a bar and restaurant if both serve food and liquor) what if he's the designated driver? I have been into bars, or restaurants that serve liquor and not had a drink. If you can't go into a bar without getting juiced I understand but don't project onto me. Thanks.

Sure, allowing guns in bars is a GOOD idea -- with one stipulation....ONLY card-carrying NRA members can enter the bar.

Hey, it's a GREAT way to reduce the number of crackpot NRA members!!!)

It is bad enough to hear a drunk shooting his mouth off.

Tom, the NRA holds an annual meeting at various cities around the US. I'm sure that there are more than a few members who will have a drink or two while at this convention. You could not meet a friendlier group of people anywhere. I have never heard of an instance of gun violence at any of these meetings and I am sure that the anti-gun media would be jumping over each other to find just one instance for them to plaster on the front page.

Regarding your comment about reducing the number of crackpot NRA members. I've never met one but I will grant you the slim probability that there may be a few, you can find a fringe crackpot element in any large group, just look at newsvine. I would like to see some statistics regarding violent crime in the area where these annual meetings are held. Does the criminal element of society believe that their chances of successfully committing a crime are reduced and go somewhere else looking for easy prey?

Leprechaun, my heart agrees with you. My head, however, lives in reality. Yes, what we need are kids with an understanding of the value of life. But in reality, there are just those out there who don't give a crap and would kill you as soon as look at you. With kids today it's all about "respect", as if respect is something that you are entitled to as a birthright rather than something you earn. What you are saying is akin to "We don't need prisons, what we need are people who don't commit crimes." If you are ever about to be mugged or robbed, or beaten within an inch of your life just for the hell of it, I doubt very seriously if you are going to be thinking "Hmm, I wonder what his childhood was like, maybe I can teach him the value of human life". What you are more likely to be thinking will be "God I wish there were someone around here that could shoot this son of a bitch before he kills me."

I am a firm believer that when it comes to gun rights, a liberal is just a conservative that hasn't been victimized yet.

Makes no difference to me..... Bars allowing guns....the scardied cats and drug dealers need a place where they feel comfortable amongst thier own kind. Those that take guns seriously as a means of protection or sport (Liberal and Conservative) know better.

KingLerxst: well put.

If you take a look at the most vocal advocates of gun control, you'll realized that many are victims of gun violence in their families.

If you are carrying a firearm, you won't be served. If you leave one in your car, you will be served. How hard is it to have a few drinks and then wander outside to pick up your weapon?

The authorization to carry a concealed weapon isn't given to everyone, so I'd rather be in a bar with someone who isn't drinking but is armed, than in a bar with someone who is getting drunk and belligerent with the ability to go to his car and get a weapon.

Good post, Tom.

That would be intimidation to be polite.

Dave 26....

An armed society is a polite society?? I can be polite with or without my guns. All it takes is feeling that your fellow citizens have the same rights as you do even if they are white, black, brown, yellow, male, female, jerks, ignorant, kind, etc You get the picture?

Treat others as you would wish to be treated by them.

Yes the Hells Angels and the Mafia are both known for their manners

So, the old west was polite?? lol

I would think more dangerous than polite, to be honest.

Even if an "armed society' is a "polite society" (is there a test for politness before a gun license is issued - I don't think so,) but a DRUNK, "armed society" is DEFINITELY NOT polite...

Yes the Hells Angels and the Mafia are both known for their manners

Joe - those ARE criminals.

Only 1% ers......The rest could be your neighbors or your boss.

Gun Control - Hot button issue:

How many posters today can say this with me?

I am the NRA.

I am the NRA.

BS. An "armed society" is most certainly NOT a "polite society". If it were, Somalia and Afghanistan would be the politest places on Planet Earth. Maybe you should move there and take your six-shooter and AK-47 with you. It would be a net 'plus' for both the country you are LEAVING (the U.S.) and the one you are GOING TO.

"a disarmed country only has a high crime rate on Fox"
Bull@!$%#. Tell that to merry olde ENGLAND.

Are more lives lost or saved by law-abiding citizens having guns?
The answer is unmistakable: More guns in the hands of law-abiding
citizens results in less crime.

The largest study ever conducted on this question found overwhelming
and conclusive evidence that MORE guns = LESS crime. (Source: Dr.
John R. Lott, Jr., "More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and
Gun Control Laws" University of Chicago Press, 1997, 1st ed.; 2000,
2nd ed. (Dr. Lott is a senior research scholar at the School of Law
at Yale University; not quite considered a "bastion of Conservatism")

Any questions?

LMFAO....so is the Prez

Payson is the home of Gunsite Academy, one of the premier firearms training schools in the country. Everyone on campus is carrying and it's one of the safest places to be.

If everyone took training this wouldn't be an issue worth discussing.

Did I read correctly someplace that if you are wearing a gun you cant be served alcohol? Why go in there in the first place?

Lisa,

Do you really believe no one in twenty years was carrying a gun in your bar or nightclub?? Evidently there was never a problem with a gun or you would have said so.

Wow,

you can bring your gun into a bar but not drink!

Then whattttttttt are you doing in a bar???

These mental midgets just packed their guns and used their
right" to carry a weapon , to stop a yoga teacher on the east coast from holding a free class on peace day!

Get a clue people! Only the little paranoid mind needs to have a weapon on them at all times..

It reminds me of those hugeeeee trucks you see barreling up your butt.. with tires that are ridiculous and  the bottom jacked up 3-4 ft from the ground.. and out jumps a 5 ft man lol ..

Well, we kinda figured you were compensating for the lack of something lol..

If you feel so threatened that you have to have a gun on you at all times , maybe you should try some medication.

Unless you are out in the brush and may come across a rattlesnake.. leave your guns home.

Quit hanging out in alleys and with riffraff and you wont feel so unsafe all of the time!

What one might gather from your post is that you are exceedingly narrow-minded. You seem to think only one type of person carries a firearm. Every victim of every assault, murder, rape, etc you have EVER read about in the paper left their house that day thinking they weren't going to be a victim. Can you honestly not grasp the concept of prevention? The Supreme Court has spoken: it's not the duty of the police to protect you. The police are a reactive force. Individual safety is up to the individual. It not paranoia, it's not a penis analogy - it's preventative measure!

Try this on for size: Do you wear your seatbelt in your car? Do you ever really use it? But you wear it anyway, knowing that it's the one thing that may save your life in the unlikely event of a collision. The carriage of a gun is no different. I wear my gun, just as I do my seatbelt. I'll probably never have to USE either, but I have them both because you never know when you'll get blindsided. Try opening your mind a little, give it a little excercise.

I think everyone is missing the point here. Laws are passed to get votes. Do you really think that politicians are worried about safety? How many politicians go into bars? Politicians 1st job is to get votes-no matter how. After all, look how Bush got the votes to his 2nd term. He lied about Iraq and the way this country feels about killing people, was just the perfect combination to get his votes. A good Politician waits for an opportunity then capitalizes on it. 9/11 was Bushs' opportunity, the invasion of Germany from Poland at the radio tower was Hitlers' opportunity. But the problem is that they put blame on the other party for their failures thus we have the attitudes we now have in this country-a cold war between the Democrats and the Republicans all fueled by our politicians. What ever is wrong with this country was brought about by a politician. America 1st-not the democrats, not the republicans-America 1st.

If you aren't drinking what are you doing in the bar? waiting for a hold up? eating free peanuts and playing with your gun? It is cowardly to carry a gun if you think the reason to carry is a 'bad guy' is around every corner.

So what happened to the meth adict that you came face to face with? did you shoot him?

Maybe hanging out with friends? All of your friends drink? Now I can't go into a bar because I don't? I don't recall saying a bad guy is around every corner. But let's see my good part of town had four break ins in one night, within 30 min of my house there is a least one shooting a night. In fact about six months ago there was a shooting a mile from my house. So maybe I'll move to the country, where they have the meth labs in the trailers, or near a state or federal park where the pot fields are. Open you eyes criminals are all around they just don't wear signs. I am glad you live in eutopia. But again next time you're in a 7-11 I or one of my fellow licensed carry holders have you back!

I was lucky and didn't have to draw. Just because I carry doesn't mean I draw,or shoot for that matter most of us never have to or have trouble dealing with that fact we did. I did however have two cop fiends tell me I was very lucky it went the way it did.

Clearly you have never heard of escalation. It's called someone fights you and you are losing... then what? I have seen perfectly rational sober men grab the nearest weapon and use it because they were losing a fight... of course the nearest weapong was a beer bottle and not a gun. So then what...? You were defending yourself if you shot the other guy? What if you don't shoot him but shoot someone else?

Hows this as a compromise. The only people allowed to carry guns in bars are the employees.

your cowardice is only topped by your paranoia or possibly your ego.  The first person to be shot in a bar will undoubtedly be an innocent bystander.   I find no comfort in knowing that an 'armed responsible citizen' could have the best of intentions but the worst in aim, thus shooting me in his 'hero' crossfire.   Guns and alcohol do not mix.  Period.   Trusting that all armed bar patrons will not also drink is totally unenforceable and in fact laughable.  Take your piece to a town hall meeting instead.  Maybe it will go off and put a cap in some other rightwing nutjob in Crazytown, where you live. 

jax, I'm glad it all came out ok with the crack head.

I never said you couldn't go to the bar with your drinking friends and hang out sober, I do it too its great, you get to be the sober cab too. But you don't need a gun to hang out with friends do you?

When you were saying why someone thinks carrying a gun is cowardly I was telling you. It is cowardly because most people who carry guns bring up that spectre of a boogy man those 'bad guys' that don't obey the law. They will be the only one to defend the poor unenlightened citizenry. That is what people consider cowardly about carrying guns. I don't want you to have My back, I want less guns.

I just lost a friend to an armed robbery, there was nothing an armed citizen could have done but caused more trouble. more guns equals more shooting equals more people dead.

Tell the old man that shot all four robbers in his store a couple months ago that there was nothing an armed citizen could have done. All the innocents walked away that day thanks to him. We cannot go on believing that bad guys are bullett proof marksmen and all good guys are paper targets who miss every time. Stop watching Diane Sawyer and do some real research. You will be glad you did

Byl:

I'm sorry you lost a friend and if I could wish away ALL guns, I would. But I can't, and no matter how many laws and rules there are, there will always be someone with a gun wishing to do harm to you.

No matter how hard you try, no matter how many messages you post, no matter how many laws are rules there are, you will be safer with a gun than without.

You don't need to take my word for it. Go ask a cop. Ask a lot of cops, do some research. Cities with restrictive gun laws have the highest crime rates.

I don't plan on getting your back, but I'm not counting on cops to get mine either. I'll take care of my own. My way.

I'd be weary if someone with the mentality like you were behind me at a Wal-Mart. Who are you to be my protector. I can take care of it myself especially from misguided types like you because I too am not a coward.

Desert Rat, I am not protecting you. I would be protecting myself and or my family. You would just be the beneficiary. Point is if someone ran in with a gun and was waving it at you and me or the crowd. I am willing to protect myself and my family and you can't take that right away.

you have way less problems than the average "Citizen" ? Except you need to carry your widdle gun around to feel good about yourself...

Hey, John Doe 787776. I agree with you on the part of the businesses that have the "NO Weapons Allowed"! If any business has one of these signs posted, I also will NOT 'patronize' this particular business! I'll go elsewhere, and my loss is their loss! In today's economy, seems they'd want all the business they could get. I just hope my favorite 'steak house' that also serves alcohol never posts any of these signs! Gosh, with all the hundreds of dollars I've spent with them, I'd be really sad...if they posted one of these signs! I'd sure miss their food!

Sounds like this poster 'Byl' is another one of those 'tree huggers' that is nothing but negative on anything to do with firearms...not to wish any bad luck on them, but hopefully they'll be one of the 'victims' in some way like I was robbed before getting my CCP, and would learn to respect the 'legal gun carrying' people of this country!

Does anyone know why Japan never attacked the U.S. Mainland when they attacked Pearl Harbor? Their Generals thought most all of the Americans were armed in their own homes! Thus no broad war on our mainland! This doesn't sum up the terrorists that hit on 9-11, as they were nothing more than suicidal maniacs to begin with.

So you would not patronize your favorite steakhouse because the owner decided they did not want guns in their own establishment which is their right under the law? What about the owners right to decide?

And then, to pretend to eliminate the venom from your statement by not wishing them any bad luck, and then wishing those of us not in favor of this particular law get victimized? What a prince you are.

Oh you are funny man! Japan was afraid of you nutjobs with your little popguns up against tanks and planes?! Trade your guns for some brains. Have fun shopping for your groceries at the gun store, since you won't shop anywhere else.

Maddog, you read only what you want to...I don't remember anything about 'tanks' being landed on Pearl Harbor...as far as planes, bullets bring down planes also, Japan lost quite a few with no warning on P-H...Pearl Harbor was a tiny island compared to the mainland. Japan didn't know 'what kind' of arms we had on the mainland, either...some of us have firearms that will easily bring down a plane, especially from the WWII era...we're not talking modern day aircraft.
As far as brains, well, didn't think 'mad dog' brains were never good anyways, is why they went 'mad'! Probably just another tree hugger...

Jen-619159

So you would not patronize your favorite steakhouse because the owner decided they did not want guns in their own establishment which is their right under the law? What about the owners right to decide?-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey, I can respect their rights under the laws! Doesn't mean I have to patronize them under my rights, either! That's why I'll go elsewhere and spend my hard earned money.

Yeah, I'm a 'prince' alright...just means what it says...IF or WHEN you or you're family is victimized then you'll understand what this means. You'll want to know why someone didn't stop this aggression against your own...you probably think the police are behind every tree waiting to catch an aggressor...

"Don't Tread On Me", you might want to remember that phrase...

I am sure Japan not attacking our mainland had nothing at all to do with logistics. Ability to communicate, supply lines, etc.

something wrong with tree huggers now? I'd rather hug a tree than a gun.

I have been the victim of crime, and if there was a gun around it would have been worse. So thanks for hoping I'll be a "victim" this just proves you don't want to have a gun to be safe, you just can't wait to pull it out and be a big John Wayne hero. You sure will teach those bad guys a lesson and if you happen to hit an innocent, well, they can just pull them selves up by their bootstraps.

I respect legal gun carrying people of this country, I have a gun. I don't respect bullies like you, and I don't have to, what are you going to do shoot me? make me a victim so I 'learn'? I am wondering when you will show everyone else that respect you are whining about not getting?

I hope you are never a victim, unlike you wish for me, then you could stop your crying over not being allowed to play with your gun everywere.

"payin-attention"-

You're NOT paying attention, Karaoke Kid has it RIGHT.

Fleet Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, the officer responsible
for planning and executing the militarily-brilliant and
tragic Pearl Harbor attack, was also asked to plan an
invasion of the US West Coast.

When asked, he advised the Emperor and the Generals in
Japan that the task was impossible, because when landing
in America, "there would be a rifle behind every blade
of grass."

With guns, we are 'CITIZENS.'
Without them, we are 'SUBJECTS.'

George Washington didn't use his FIRST Amendment rights
to dissuade the British. He SHOT them.

Thomas Jefferson said;
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny;
When the government fears the people, there is liberty.

VIVA America, baby!

Liberty and Justice for ALL.

maddog0802, "popguns and p shooters" are doin a fine job on the greatest military in the world in Afghanistan huh? Learn something about warfare before you make statements like that. But you won't. you will go on self righteously prattling your opinion as if it were Papel doctrine. Because after all if it makes sense to you....The rest of the world just needs to take your word for it right?

To JohnDoe:

Yeah, those really thorough background checks with psychological profiling really kept the nutjobs away fropm the guns, didn't they? Anybody remember the Virginia Tech massacre?

Anybody figure out that all the laws in the world will not keep all of us safe 24/7? Anybody figure out that had just one student in that classroom been legally carrying they could have stopped the killing instead of being killed?

There is no logical way to reason with ignorant people Rich. They live in a state of bliss where they're under the impression that posting a "NO GUNS" sign outside a bar or banning guns altogether will keep the criminals with guns outside. LOL

Here is a hint for those idiots:

THAT IS WHY THEY ARE CALLED CRIMINALS... LAWS AND SIGNS ARE INCONSEQUENTIAL TO THEM; OTHERWISE THEY WOULD BE LAW ABIDING CITIZENS!

Anti-gun laws ONLY restrict us law abiding citizens from protecting ourselves, our loved ones and those that "wish" there was a good Samaritan around with a gun that would help them from getting mugged, kidnapped, raped or murdered by the real criminals.

Do you really think an intended criminal is going to walk in a gun store, pick out a gun, have a NICS (National Instant Criminal Background Check System) run on them, and in the end pay to legally obtain a gun? LOL.

Show me a stupid criminal like that.. and I’ll show you someone that will be behind bars real quick

But that begs the question that, prior to this law, law-abiding concealed-weapons carriers sitting in the local bar were, in fact, in violation of the law. Of course, no one knew that they had the weapons, which would only be known if they had pulled the weapons, presumably only to protect themselves from the criminals, which, it turns out, they were.* Laws are supposed to apply to all, and equally. No counter-argument that criminals would disregard the signs anyway; I suspect the concealed-weapons carriers that so conveniently disregarded the law previously will observe the "no drinking" provision, purely because it's "the law." And everyone will be safer, considering that both sides have a singular understanding and appreciation of the law.

Most importantly, it makes me wonder at the state of affairs in all these bars. It reminds of a scene from the movie Maverick -- "Cooper, your security isn't worth a d**n, everybody has a gun!" In the final analysis, though, I suspect we were surrounded by all these "just in case" weapons the whole time -- and crime goes on.

*While the previous gun rule might've been ruled unconstitutional, the fact that it was the existing law overides (its a crapshoot, since private property laws, and the self-evident need of public safety, would muddy the water). Allowing people, as individuals, to interpret the laws as they see fit, for any reason, is a dangerous and foolish way for a society to live. "It's a bad law," is not a valid excuse for disobeying it -- just ask the jury.

Ah, yes, the American life as delineated by T.R.

I lived in Detroit once where it seemed the only people carrying guns were intent on robbing businesses and people, including me. Police force there was (is?) a joke.

I lived in Dallas and other Texas cities where it seemed the only people using guns were to rob and terrorize the citizenry, including me. Police force there was (is?) a joke.

I now live in Phoenix (Scottsdale) and decided that having a little "equalizer" for the first time in my life may not be a bad thing. Incidentally, the police force here is very busy writing speeding tickets and catching illegal aliens to justify their existence - so they're not a total joke.

The law states that CONCEALED weapons are allowed into the bar. How do you suppose the bartender is supposed to enforce the "no drinking" portion of this law if he/she can't even tell if a patron has a gun? And no, I don't think everyone with a concealed weapon will go up to the bartender and say"oh, make sure not to serve me alcohol tonight."

helpinghand - I live in AZ, I am also an NRA member, and I agree with you completely on everything you just said. I personally see NO good reason, no real merit, for this law.

I am not a pro-gun person, and I usually have a quick reaction to those who defend gun laws, but I have to say that I am wholly impressed by your responses to this law. If only more gun owners reasoned like the two of you, we would be in a lot better shape and a lot of us who aren't pro-gun might have a change of heart (perhaps because we wouldn't be so scared of gun toting crazies). Thanks for showing me another side to gun owners.

Well put HH. There are crazies on fringes of every group. They are what is causing such devisivness in this country. While not a gun owner myself, I was brought up around firearms and hunting. I had one friend lose a leg in a gun cleaning accident and a cousin shot in a hunting accident. In both cases alcohol was involved.

Many if not most NRA members are reasonable individuals, unfortunately I think that the minority that is hyper political about firearm control has tainted its reputation. Charlton Heston's "...pry it from my cold dead hand" quote did little to molify the fears of the left.

Actually in the article it states that if you are carrying you won't be permitted to drink. Not sure why you would be in the bar in that case, but there it is.

Bertfw, 'Some' bars actually serve some good sandwiches, hamburgers to be more specific, and usually other types of 'hot' food. Even though their main income may come from alcoholic drinks, they still serve food as well, and tea or soft drinks. How about meeting me at one of the classic bars here for a good ole 'mushroom, bacon swiss cheeseburger' with all the trimmings? Oh, and a big tall glass of sweet tea!

how you gonna enforce the no drinking provision? Make everyone carrying pass a breathalyzer test before entering the bar and on leaving? Totally unenforceable and therefore meaningless.

I won't disagree with you on this one, Except for the 'meaningless' part. But this is where the 'law abiding citizen' part comes in, with honesty. Not everyone will be this way, I'm sure, but most of the CCPH people will abide with the laws, so they won't lose their right to carry. I sure wouldn't want to lose my right because I 'might' have a drink while carrying. I consider it a priviledge to have a clean record and be able to carry when I feel it's necessary.

It was already against the law to drink and carry. CCW people just do not put their permits and themselves in jeopardy over a drink.

First off, I like to remind you that Chinese communism was founded by liberal minded people as well.

Liberal minded people? Better go read up on your Forefathers. Hamilton was pretty liberal, but his influence was after the Revolution. And of course he had no problem with setting up another Monarchy with his mentor George Washington as King. Really that first sentence of yours should serve as indictment if anything. Also, you can thank Mr. Hamilton for setting up our central banking system, modelled after the U.K's. Which is the real cause of the economic downturn. Another nifty Liberal idea, of course I doubt you can even define Liberal without looking it up, at least not in the traditional sense of the word...Commie!

Randino

First off, I like to remind you that Chinese communism was founded by liberal minded people as well.

List please!

What about some crazed idiot, like the one in Texas at Lubys resturant, who walked in and shot and killed a bunch of people? I think it never would have happened to the degree it was, had someone who was armed had been there! One shot would have been enough to stop this psyco and would have saved countless lives. I think I would feel a lot safer knowing the good guys had concealed weapons, should something like this happened anywhere, a resturant, a bar, or where ever! Austrailia's gov, took away all guns from citizens and the crime rate soared. The bad guys knew nobody had weapons so who's to stop them???? I believe armed citizens is the only thing for self protection, and for the protection of others against the gangs and outlaw element! God bless the NRA! "From my cold dead hands"!!!!!!!!