Do you agree that the U.S. should mind its own business internationally?
Thu Dec 3, 2009 12:30 PM EST
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Do you agree that the U.S. should mind its own business internationally?
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We have a much more serious problem within the US and we should not be interfering in other countries around the world so groups like the Army and CIA can justify their existence . There is nothing to be gained by throwing more and more billions of dollars at a lost cause when there really is no cause.
Black Knight why do you consider this a "liberal" point of view?
And you are a flat-out MORON. Your vs. You're - learn it, know it, love it.
Well I'm certainly no liberal and I totally agree with John...
Let's quit trying to manage the world and spend more effort protecting our borders.
I am tired of being the policeman of the entire world. I am tired of being the sugar daddy. We never have been shown appreciation for the things we have done to help the rest of the world - we just get our faces slapped.
However, should we completely ignore the rest of the world? Probably not a good idea. Take care of our friends when we can and let the rest deal it alone.
We have our own problems we need to deal with before we try to lend a hand elsewhere. If people want to donate money and supplies to a disaster zone somewhere, let them, but keep the government out of it.
Black Knight has stated before he is ex-military and muslim... probably just stirring the pot.
Isolationism is looking pretty good these days. Especially since the U.S. is broke.
Whether we like it or not, folks, we are living in a global economy. We can't afford to isolate ourselves and ignore the rest of the world because American business is intrinsically connected to a very global financial system. And, if we let China take over as a world power by not keeping our our world stature, you will all be wishing that we stayed more involved internationally. I repeat, we may be struggling financially but we CAN'T AFFORD to be isolationists, especially now!
America is full of pussies now
I agree that we need to let other countries do their own thing. Lets take care of America before everyone else. But i dont agree with needing wars etc to justify having an Army or CIA. They are here to defend and protect this beautiful nation, and regardless if we are fighting or not, or involved in other countries affairs or not- we need an Army and CIA to prevent further attacks on us. Freedom is eternal vigilance.
I believe all of the countries should pay their fair share of this war. Why should we pay the full amount.
HMM,
the only reason China is now a world power is because most Americans don't care where the products they buy at Walmart (or wherever) are manufactured, just so long as they're cheap. Offer the average consumer a choice between a widget that costs $1.00, made in china at 17 cents an hour wages, and a similar widget, made here the good 'ol U. S. of A. at $17.00 an hour wages, which costs the consumer maybe $2.50 instead, and gues what? They'll take the cheap deal every time.
Then they @!$%# and moan because "all the jobs are being shipped overseas". Well, no duh! As long as we keep buying cheap instead of buying American the problem is going to continue.
The problem only gets worse when the American product is inferior in quality to the cheaper import. It's no wonder the Japanese have cleaned Detroit's clock over the last twenty years. They build better cars!
I'll admit, in the interest of full disclosure here, that I drive a Nissan. I know, I know... buy American... well, here's the deal... eight years ago when I needed an absolutely reliable commuter car to get me back and forth on a 90 mile round trip commute every day, I did the research, which basically told me that most American vehicles being produced at the time were absolute crap and looked even worse. They'd last maybe 50,000 miles and kapoot! So I bit my lip and bought a used Nissan Maxima with about 36,000 miles on it. It's now got 136,000 and I've never put anything it but oil and gas. Not even water. The radiator never loses a drop. Try that with your average Ford or Chevy. Sheesh... cracked blocks, tight rings, fouled plugs, seen it all.
And why? Because the unions fought tooth and nail against robotic manufacturing techniques. We gotta preserve highly skilled jobs for highly (over) paid workers! We can't allow the robots to take replace people! Well, when a robotically controlled drill (which doesn't cost any hourly wage beyond it's initial admittedly steep cost of installation) can bore out a V-6 with a hundred times the accuracy of a human controlled tool, it's no wonder the end resulting car is cheaper and yet lasts longer. Luckily they've finally wised up, but it's a little late.
Quote from SmartAlec10
CoH violation.
Good handle.
Our "Business" is international. We are part of a Global Economy, our economic well being depends on, and has a direct effect on the Worlds economy.
Also, we have the most powerful Military in the world, (with the possible exception of the China)
Does anyone think it would be a good idea if we completely ignored unstable Governments that are trying to develop Nuclear arsenals? Or, ignore the policies of unstable Governments that develop, encourage and assist terrorist?
If we became isolationist and did not attempt to support the World economy and stabilize certain military factors, our economy and national security would be severely jeopardized.
I thought this question was a no brainer, until I saw all the yes votes.
Black Knight apparently John has a lot of people who think like he does. 80% of those polled so far. Only the Neocons want to make over other countries.
In response to the contention that Japanese cars are built better, my last two cars have been American and on the road much longer than anyone's Japanese car that I know of. My last car had 370,000 miles before it was totalled in an accident. My current car has about 270,000 and runs great. I also know someone who's American car lasted 500,000 miles. Most people I know are happy if their car lasts 200,000
100,000
Perhaps if we minded our own business other countries would not think so poorly of us. It is very arrogant for the USA to think that the way we do things is the only way and want everyone to be like us. What works for us does not necessarily work for others.
While I agree with the sentiment behind what you've stated, I think you forgot the exception clause. Except when someone is trying to kill us or cripple our country.
While I am sick of these wars, and never understood Iraq at all, I think it is simple minded to say the USA is arrogant. How quickly people forget that they were united on 9/11.
BTW, other countries don't think poorly of us due to our involvement in world affairs, in fact, those same countries are the same ones that cry for help every time they need it. They, and I mean their governments, think poorly of us out of jealousy and pettiness. It's called politics. And believe it or not, if you've traveled at all, you'd know that most people, including vast majority of the evil Europeans, actually really like America and Americans. Don't believe everything you hear from the media.
Jen,
Have you really ever travelled outside this country? I mean besides Tijuana or Canada? All is takes is one trip to Europe to learn that America and Americans are the most egotistical, fat, self-centered slobs on the planet. It's embarrassing.
Yes, I have traveled in Europe.... WE may be embarrassed by our fellow Americans at times because of how we see them acting, but we are also very self conscience of how we are perceived. If you actually KNOW any Europeans, they will tell you that ALL travelers are rude and annoying at times, but Americans are far from the worst offenders. Sightseers and travelers are, regardless of what country they are visiting, notoriously wide eyed and out of touch with local custom...ever visit a tourist area in the US?
It's interesting that Americans are the most judgmental about fellow Americans. I always view it that a fellow American's actions shouldn't determine how a foreigner views me, otherwise, the foreigner is just as obnoxious as the American causing offense.
Jen,
my older sister lives in France, has lived there for over twenty years, and has been married twice, both times to Frenchmen. I've visited them several times, spending weeks at a stretch. Also, I went to college in England for a year, and during that time travelled as far as Istanbul, Morocco, East Berlin (before the wall came down), and just about everywhere in between.
Yes, the "ugly American" tourist is no myth. You see them everywhere.
Secondly, here in the states, I live about 2 hours drive from one of the most popular National parks, Yosemite. Throughout my life, I've probably been there over 20 times, and everytime, the park seems more and more crowded with Japanese and Germans and Australians, and whatnot.
But the amazing thing is... they're all nice people. They're not rude. They don't litter. They don't cut in line. The most offensive thing I've witnessed was a bunch of Japanese unloading off a tour bus and then gathering together in the parking lot near Bridalveil Waterfall to do tai-chi. The Horror!
I agree Mike. I lived in England for a few years... not exactly loved there either ! why ? the main reason I heard ? we are pushy. And we are. what makes us think our lifestyle is the best ? While it may be for us and I'm starting to wonder about that as it comes for the past 8 years crashing down around us. We are impulsive 3 year olds that think the world should be run as we see fit. Throw tantrums when it isn't and have horrible foreign policy to prove it with a threatening military to back it up.
but remember ... in the game of king of the hill one can only remain king so long before one is pushed off or falls.
Right we spent the better part of 8 years under Bush trying to do this. How did that work out. Isolationism also means you produce the majority of your own products with your own people or your economy collapses. Free markets are not free any longer. Wake up manufacturing in the US still going down. How long can the people here support Chinese and Indian and meican workers making our products for us while jobs are being exported and we ave to fight over minimum wage jobs while price increase daily?
The reason I agree the U.S. should mind it,s own buisiness, is because the U.S. right NOW , seriouosly needs to take care of it,s own people and strengthen it,s OWN economy! When we have achieved that...THEN we can start thinking about helping other nations! We need to get our priorities straight!
Take care of our own, then we can reach out!
That was fine 50 -100 years ago but it won't work now. We are a global economy now which means that are financial prosperity is intrinsically linked to the rest of the world. We can't take our eyes off the ball and lose our international stature as a world power. If we do, China would be more than happy to take our place.
HMMMM you keep pounding that "we are intrinsically linked to the rest of the world" mantra over and over. I disagree that we are doomed to become the worlds whipping child, piggy bank and servant. Just because the globalist and progressives claim we can't regain some of our independence, that does not make it true. In the long run our stature and prosperity will grow to new heights if we become more independent and self sufficient. But that is exactly what today's globalist and progressives are trying to prevent. They don't want any country to be more successful than any other country, especially America, what with it's freedom, it's democracy and what's left of it's capitalism. They want them all at the same, dirt poor, so the masses are easier to control. The globalist are doing out of their desire for wealth and power. The progressives are doing it out of a misguided and naive belief that the world should and can be made "fair" and "equal" for everyone. Never mind that history shows human nature to be incapable of acheiving this utopia of equality.
We are a global economy now which means that are financial prosperity is intrinsically linked to the rest of the world.
Horse Hockey!
Yes, the United States should mind it's own business and I believe international affairs is a part of the U.S.'s business. Should we continue to pour billions of dollars into other countries, NO, those dollars should be used to shore-up the U.S.'s economy.
sometimes we need to tell other countries to knock it off as with uganda and their kill the gays policy. i am still waiting for hillary to tell them this.
I like their policy!! Wish we had it here!! Wish we had the same policy for Hillaries and other extremist feminists like her also!
Yeah Zak, and maybe we could extend that to include kill all the sexist homophobes too!
sorry rick .. it'll never happen. there's no oil or other natural resource to exploit. If Iraq had none we never would have been there. If Afghanistan wasn't center to moving oil to the gulf we wouldn't be there still. bin laden and the taliban ? lol excuses to be there.
I think this is a situational question rather than a broad yes/no answer. If something like 9/11 happened again, I'm all for taking them out & vote no. If you're talking about rebuilding our own self sufficient manufacturing rather than using 3rd world cheap labor at the expense of our own people being unemployed, I say yes. Getting our economy tied to 3rd world countries and those between us and that level hasn't worked out very well at all for anyone but the corporate executives who can pay practically slave wages to get things done for them and give themselves multi-million dollar bonuses.
Bring back pride & quality in 'Made in America' products and the rest will take care of itself. If you make a quality product, people will pay for it. Just look at Apple with the iPhone. It's a HUGE success simply because it is a quality product, not because it costs $30 and has a Made in China sticker on the back.
Hate to break it to you, but the iPhone is manufactured in China, at the Hon Hai Precision Industry Co to be exact.
<snicker>
The U.S. is a great country but it's not the only great country. We should be addressing our problems right here at home before attempting to solve the problems faced by other nations. Yes, help as we can when we can, but stop being the world's Big Brother or the Planetary Police Force. At least stop the idiotic going it alone policies that have landed us in two quagmire wars. And I agree - Buy American! Put Americans back to work. Stop giving tax breaks, etc. to U.S. companies that ship jobs overseas and start taxing them higher or fining them.
I agree completely. Couldn't have said it better.
You two are the biggest fools I have ever seen. It is par for the course from what I am reading. When was the last time you were in Iraq or Afganistan you spolied little wimps! If either of you would open your spoiled American eyes for just one minute you will find that their is a plethora of other nations assisting in the fight. If you are so concerned than get involved and quit whining about everything that you don't get help from the government with. And by the way, if either of you have travelled the world like some of us, you would see that this IS the ONLY GREAT COUNTRY left...
Your full of crap, US forces make up over 90% of the fighting forces in both those wars. Any other countries involvement is minimal at best. Spare everyone the wrapping yourself in the flag bit too. The fact the the US is a great country doesn't make me want to waste taxpayer money nation building bronze age cultures who don't want us there.
What utter tripe. The ISAF presence in Afghanistan doesn't compare squat to the American presence and most "coalition" countries have pulled a majority if not all their troops out. Some of them completely withdrew YEARS ago.
And what's this "quit whining about everything that you don't get help from the government with" crap? The English in that statement is so butchered it's hard to tell what you're actually implying; but from what I glean, you're accusing these other people of whining that their government isn't functional to them. WTF? It isn't. Our government has spent the last decade wasting our money in needless, utterly pointless foreign wars that do not interest us in the slightest. This isn't a "whine", it's a statement of fact.
I've traveled the world and I can tell you that the idea that America is "THE ONLY GREAT COUNTRY left..." (allcaps folks, allcaps.) is utterly absurd. Virtually every western, central, and northern European country beats America on every qualify of life index tracked since the middle 1990s. More countries than THAT outrank us for provision of healthcare to citizens and even noncitizens. Our economy is one of the weakest in the west.
You're just deluded and angsty, and insecure about being American, I guess.
Solid.
Our lawmakers sold us out. Plain and simple. I love it when I hear about the "global economy". We are the world's biggest consumer. If we consumed what we made, the rest of the world would not be happy, but they would change their tune quickly, and our dollar would be stronger because we would no longer be importing more than we export.
What truly riles me is the all American brands like (Hart Shaffner & Marx) which has the rights on names like Ralph Lauren, and whose brand is made in Viet Nam!!!!! Is that why over 60,000 Americans died, so we could have cheap brand names??
I do not see that the quality of our life has benefited by exporting the jobs. And PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not have Carli running for political office. That witch gave away 10,000s of our us jobs, and shoved them off shore. She made millions off that little effort with her stock options. Frankly, all she was during the last campaign was a corporate bimbo who is totally out of touch with main street.
Hell no " we won't go". What is the UN For or doing? They are no differant than our congress spent time meeting and doing nothing.There is a saying don't complain about somone else kitchen, when your is not clean.
Let's kick your goverment out and start anew. Congress get your hands out of my pocket and give me back some of my money you keep spending on your whores, dinners and summer houses.
We need to get our priorities in line.
Isolationism is one thing, minding one's business, another. I think the American public, and voters, like myself, are sick and tired of seeing our "leaders" happily betting us bogged down in wars that have no end in sight and serve no purpose that anyone can readily understand. Thousands of lives are lost, thousands more are maimed for life, others come back with serious disorders like PTSD that impact their lives and those of everyone close to them, families are destroyed, and one cannot help thinking that all that money could be better spent on education (for all those soldiers and ancillary services), on building and repairing our outdated infrastructure, on confronting the challenges of climate change, etc. Far more importantly, much more energy should be devoted to international diplomacy, and less to supporting puppet governments like Karzai's in Afganistan. That is not isolationism, but a healthy dose of plain...shame?
I don't think the US should be the police force of the world... the worst part is that our blood and our taxes are paying for this behavior by our government. I agree with going after our enemies, but beyond that, let other countries deal with thier own wars and dictators. Our blood is being spilled and out money is being spent in places around the world where there is no direct threat to our national security. US forces for US security only.
Even with the UN, why do we supply more UN forces than most other countries in the world combined? Clearly we don't have the population to justify this sacrifice of our citizens or to justify the expense. Our UN military contribution should be scaled back to what other countries of our size contribute and no more.
Our government needs to stop thinking that it governs the world.
With the "Possible" exception of the Korean War, the U.N. is just a joke! The U.N. should be kicked out of the U.S., and make their Headquarters on some remote island in the Pacific Ocean for all the good they are!
Sad, but I agree - the UN is so ineffective, and the U.S. is asked to do more than our fair share to fund it. Great idealistic dream... isn't working out too good for us.
The UN is more than the General Assembly or Security Council. Its various agencies ARE doing good and important work and should receive our full support. By the way, it is not the job of the U.N. to fight terrorists in Afghanistan or around the world. That is the job of its individual member states.
Keep in mind, 90% of the UN Funding is provided by the US. Also, why can't the British pay for their share of the war. Aren't they at risk. The reason is, because we pay for it all
Ok Bob I'll bite. Exactly what is it that the UN is doing that should compel our full support? Putting countries like Syria in charge of it's human rights council? I'll check back later to read your list.
Reuters has an article on UN funding. A group comprising of the EU, Japan, US, Canada, Australia and NZ have agreed to six months of funding capped at US$950 million,
Now how much does each group contribute, well here we go:
EU 35%
US 22%
Japan 19.5%
Canada 2.8%
Australia 1.6%
NZ 0.2%
Total 81.1%
try some actual facts ...
http://www.globalpolicy.org/un-finance/tables-and-charts-on-un-finance.html
we've been 'paying ' more because we haven't been paying . we've walked out on the bill ( as Bush did claiming we didn't need the UN then he groveled for the UN's help. lol )
Bush flip-flopped on whether the U.S. would reach out to the international community for help with Iraq.
FLIP: President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld were adamant that the United States was not going to the United Nations to seek more support in Iraq at the expense of delegating any authority there.
FLOP: But in his nationally televised press conference in April 2004, the president took pains to praise the mission of U.N. envoy Lakhdar Brahimi and emphasize his determination to back it to the hilt. Bush's decision to name Ambassador to the U.N. John Negroponte as his first ambassador to an at least titular independent Iraq after the scheduled handover of sovereignty on June 30 was widely taken as a sign that Bush is finally prepared to let the world body have more of a say in helping restore that country.
just an FYI
There is right and wrong and as long as we are right it doesn`t matter what other countries think about us !
Jingo bells, jingo bells, jingo all the waaay!
It's really a matter of setting priorities. For many years we had an economic stake in being on friendly terms with the countries of the world so we helped support their economies by having a military presence. Now we have to assess if the economic cost is balanced by the benefits we receive. I think the balance has shifted.
As many people have already stated the question usually depends on what's going on in the world. We obviously can't be the world's police force nor can we always be sticking out nose in every little disagreement. With that said, people need to realize this is a double-edged sword. If we're going to mind our own business internationally as the question says, that means not doing anything via the military in the world at any time. It also means for all the bleeding hearts in this country no running over to Africa to feed the hungry nor does it mean providing any other type of service to anyone who is less fortunate in the world. Additionally most charity money will no longer be allowed to flow to non profit organizations for there is always the chance some of that money could go outside the U.S. and since we need to mind our own business, don't expect your tax right off. Finally, all the money we've borrowed from China will stop in addition to all products, goods and services that have been provided or are being provided to us as a country. Sorry folks there goes your French wine, oil from the Middle East and big screen televisions from Asia. How many readers didn't take this into account? As usual it makes for a great read to tell others how we just need to bury our heads in the sand and let the world take care of itself. Funny, we tried that twice in the 20th Century and something happened along the way to the forum-two world wars.
Our most "conservative" politicians seem to love war which I don't understand since these two wars will have to be paid for by our grandchildren. Our more "liberal" politicians refuse to just pick up and leave for fear of what the "conservatives" think. The human cost of blood in those countries we will be paying for with PTSD victims for the next century. FOR WHAT!!!!! If we "win" what have we won?? These people have been killing each other before Christ and will be doing so when he returns. No we have no business there and we most definatly should mind our own business when it comes to these civil wars. If we mind our own business we will create far less enemies in the first place. Does anyone really believe the majority of the population in these Countries will ever see us as anything except invaders? These camel riders with their antiquated weapons are no threat to our Country and therefore it is none of our business. We need to mind our own business and keep an eye on places like Iran that might actually have the potential to do us harm. That would be our business.
We aren't the only country in the world with responsibilities to world stability. The US is not the world police force, the UN is. If the world wants the US to be the police force, then they need to pony up some cash and some bodies to help with the effort... the US is being used by the rest of the world... oh wait that is what the UN is for... hmmm maybe other countries (many richer than us) need to pull thier own weight with regard to world stability.
People who want to play the guilt card about the US being the stabilizing factor in the world is BS. We don't have to be total isolationist as you exagerated, but we don't have to be forcing other countries to do what we want... just because we don't like thier form of government or thier laws? If there is a US security threat in some other country then fine, lets take the fight to them. Otherwise, lets just mind our own interests.
I don't see why our country should bear the cost of world stability, when we can't even manage to house and feed all our own citizens, or provide medical care for all our citizens, or even world class public education.
Feh! the time for you world power fanatics is close to an end -- time to stop send our lives and money overseas and start spending it here.
Let's quit sending all that foreign aid overseas and help our citizens at home first!!! This is ridiculous.
If US intervene for the security of other countries, the host country should pay for all the expenses incured. Why can't Iraq pay for all war expenses. They have the second largest oil reserve in the world. US should get all their crude from Iraq free of charge. Same with Afganistan. If these countries cannot, then either US should get out or tell Saudis and other rich muslim countries to pay for this war. Even though there are plenty of rich muslim countries, none of them pay for this war or any other humanitarian issues in this world. Example, when Tsunami happened in Indianosia, who were the biggest contributers? It was US and other western Christian nations!
This war is for the muslims, for their protection from the islamic fundamentalists or oppressors like saddam hussain. US citizens should never pay a dime for this war.
?? yet none of the Iraqi's ever asked us to invade. Freedom is an inside job and must be started internally. not by an outside source.
this war was about oil. if Iraq had none we never would have been there.
and FYI ? this is not a christian nation. this country was founded on the freedom to express belief and the freedom from it ruling !! The majority of the founding fathers were Deists. It is noted in our treaties we are not founded on Christianity. If someone tells you other wise they are either lying or stupid.
I believe the U.S. is minding its own business by partaking in world events. We can not return to the ostrich in the sand mentality. Believe it or not the U.S. is still the world leader militarily and economically, even with a deficit (Don't believe the ney sayers). You have to keep in mind that the deficit is a very small fraction of our overall GDP. I know that our country is going through a very ruff period in time; however, we've been through it before when we transformed from an agricuturalized economy to an industrialized economy, and currently going from a industrializied economy into an extremely high-tech/green economy. With change and growth comes pains. As Americans we will always over come because it just a part of our nature, we suffer, adjust and come through. The U.S. was, is and still shall be the greatest country in the world because of who we are as a people - One Nation, Under God, Indivisible with Liberty and Justice for All.
I believe you are very nieve, to say the least! What planet did you say your from and what the hell are you smoking in your pipe?
I am groaning in disbelief.... Tracy, do you write propaganda for the White House? If not, you may want to go ask for a job. And I mean that in truly the nicest way possible.
Do you have any ideal how much money would return to fuel our economic interest if we pulled all of our troops out of other countries? Let other countries take care of them selfs.
The problem is, you can't do that. As the worlds only "Superpower" or whatever the term is now, the United States has to maintain a military presence on every continent. Granted, we have bases in more than a 100 countries and that is excessive but in order to keep the "American Influence" around the world our military has to stay. I don't like the reality but i understand what can really happen and what is just stuff of fantasy. It is a drain on taxpayer resources but it provides the United States with preemptive strike capabilities, which serves as a deterent to anyone who might think of double crossing us. Its a double edged sword because having a military presence everywhere causes people to resent us as well. And you better well bet that our troops in Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the Philippines serve as a deterent to China. Having an American prescence of over 100,000 troops in their backyard makes them think twice about any military action. I think that we should pull out of around half the countries we are in. Hell most likely we have another military base in the neighboring country anyway.
Completely agree. We spend way too much overseas, when we need to look inward and focus on our own household. Go back to Roosevelt's idea of 'speaking softly and carrying a big stick'.
One of the reasons China is doing so well, is that they don't have to spend huge $$$ in hosting overseas military bases, etc... They see us do it, loan us money to do it...and we have to pay them back +interest to keep doing it....
You don't have to be a financial wizard to see who is going to come out on top in the long run following that kind of strategy.
'Pre-emptive strike capability"? What enemy are you worried about? Korea? Gimme a break! Who's gonna nuke us? The Iranians? If they ever succeed in building a bomb? They wouldn't be so stupid.
The last and pretty much only successful attack perpetrated against us was committed by a bunch of clever maniacs armed with box cutters! That's the enemy we need to be wary of and the only justification for continuing this god-forsaken mess in Afganistan.
Get Bin Ladin and get out!!
Never bet against an idiot making a bad decision. That what makes them idiots, the unflinching ability to make bad decisions - even decisions that could directly affect life and limb. Look at Saddam, he let pride prevent him from obeying the NATO directive. Even though he knew he didn't have any WMD's ... he couldn't stand the thought of admitting it.
In his way of thinking, it was better to "bluff it out" rattle sabers ... than to accept that smart way out was play the game. He was out "gamed". He placed a bet that the US would never knowingly attack, without valid proof.
He lost that bet. A military decision right up there with General Custer believing in his invincablity based on how far the an enemy will go to make a point.
Never count out the stubborness of idiots, there is ample proof that being wrong headed is synonymous with being an idiot. There is a time and a place for being pig-headed. But there are also repercussions if you push it too far.
"Never count out the stubborness of idiots, there is ample proof that being wrong headed is synonymous with being an idiot."
Yep. George W. Bush sure confirms the truth of that.
Seems to me that is what Ron Paul was saying when he ran for the GOP ticket and he was laughed at. Who's laughing now?