Unfortunatly many passengers only fly occasionally, and sometimes are forced to fly certain airlines because of where they are going. It's not as easy as just giving up Kmart and switching to Walmart. But I agree that the plane should never be boarded or leave the gate if they KNOW it's just going to sit there. Airlines NEED that gate, so they will knowingly send the plane out to the tarmac to wait just to free up a gate for another plane coming in.

But I agree that the plane should never be boarded or leave the gate if they KNOW it's just going to sit there. Airlines NEED that gate, so they will knowingly send the plane out to the tarmac to wait just to free up a gate for another plane coming in.

OK genius. What is the solution? Incoming planes need a gate too.

Uh, yea, that's what I just said. The solution? The solution is what they've been doing....send the plane away from the gate and don't come back untill it takes off. Other than that, they will have to come up with some other physical means of getting people off the plane without parking at a gate or ramp....genius.

How about don't load the plane you know is not going to take off. Just move it from the pier so you can unload the ones that are landing.

The only reason they don't do this is because it would leave the passenger an avenue to demand a refund and leave the airport.

Also, don't know how old you guys are, but back in the day they didn't have piers. They had doors that went out on to the tarmac where you would walk out and up a mobile set of stairs onto the airplane.

These folks that are "stuck" on the plane because of all the pier gates already have planes parked at them could easily be disembarked by simply using one of these mobile stair cases and a shuttle to take them back to the terminal.

Its great that you have the time to drive "everywhere in North America." Those of us with limited time off have to fly if we want to go anywhere outside of our home region.

I drive also - it is more expensive, more time consuming, and more dangerous than flying. But flying is such a royal pain-in-the-arse now, it just is not worth it. I guess I can live without a visit to Hawaii or Europe.

Civil court would not apply for this DOT fine, and passengers would play no role in the decision process (maybe as witness.) Either the DOT levies the fine for a certain flight, or it declines to do so. The DOT would decide if a delay exceeding the limit occured; then it would determine if one of the exceptions would apply, based on info from the airline, FAA controllers and airport officials. If the airport authorities verify that no gate or other equipment was available for deplaning safely, then no fine would be proposed. Even if a fine is laid on, there would be an administrative appeal procedure. In appeal, the fine could be reduced or cancelled.

If there are 30 planes in queue that are nearing a time limit, would it "disrupt operations" to have the controllers pull them out of line, taxi to a gate or unloading-area-with-buses, then move planes to a parking area until reloading can be scheduled?

OSHA often levies fines for safety infractions - many of which are reduced or eliminated upon appeal. It just gives the lawyers something to debate. That is how federal regulatory fines operate.

Perhaps the claustrophobic feeling is only present in a stationary state? Not while in motion.

I understand #20's claustrophia. As unreasonable as I know it is, it hits me when I'm sitting in a plane just standing on the tarmac or even in a car that's stuck in a traffic jam. I'm fine as long as the plane is in motion (even circling the terminal on the ground).

Very simple answer to your questions: GATES. They need gates to deplane. To get a plane at a gate that isn't suppossed to be there means another plane has to move...a big pain in the neck, and one that requires man-power. And then where do you put that other plane? There are all kinds of rules about where planes are supposed to sit, etc. Unfortunately, our airports and air travel system has not kept up with the demands of our constantly breeding population. There are just too many people using the system so it's running a total capcity all the time, leaving little room for these situations.

I personally would favor a shorter limit, but I also understand the air traffic control issues that would result from a very short time limit. If only the one airport was affected, I'd agree that planes shouldn't even be boarded until take-off was guaranteed. But, in our current hub system such a change would cause difficulties at one airport to quickly ripple throughout the system because planes at other airports wouldn't be able to take off because there'd be no open gates at their destination.

Gates are expensive, but every major airport should have spares to allow quick deplaning of passengers. Other airports should have remote areas where delayed planes can taxi and their passengers can be removed by bus.

I know that not everyone will agree with me, but I'd rather have my flight cancelled than spend four, five or more hours sitting on the tarmac.

It is very difficult to just reschedule every flight because of long takeoff delays. The planes and crews are needed downstream for today's next leg, and three more legs after that.

Once it appears that a plane could be delayed on the tarmac longer than allowed, it would be best to cancel the flight before loading passengers or their bags (even if the plane then gets in line empty and takes off to the next airport - then the ship, crew, and freight are where they need to be for the rest of the day.) The preferred outcome would be to know about the delay situation early enough so the flight can be cancelled before the plane even arrives at the delay site and can be diverted around that city.

Why cancel a flight that was forced to deplane? Because by the time it could be serviced (heads cleaned), reloaded and wait a couple more hours in queue, it would be too late to make any connections. The airline could be solidly into the next day's schedule by then.

Dan McGlaun

You crazy Bastard. I COMPLETELY agree.

It's not like the storm came on from the time the plane left the pier to the time it got lined up on the runway.

What the rule should be is,

"If the Tower can't guarantee take off? the plane should not leave the terminal.

God damm pussy ass govt can't even get this right.

Give the power back to the States!!

Well, they did declare a penalty of $27,500 per passenger. That adds up really fast so perhaps airlines won't be so willing to push the envelope.

Give the power back to the states? To do what? Planes fly BETWEEN states while travelling. They can travel over many states in one trip. Which state's rule would apply to the various issues that could occur on any single flight? There are very good reasons to have one set of national rules....regardless of how good or bad those rules are.

Johanna D

in Detroit during the storm of 1999

ME TOO!!

Oh my God. What a night mare. I was there for two and half, almost three days. Blankets! we had to bribe a dude to unlock the gangway so we could go onto the planes and steal the blankets.

I remember landing and knowing it was only a question of time. I was on that conveyer walk way when I realized the guy in front of me was the Director of Operations. He was on his cell and telling, whom ever, "Yea. Shut it down. No more out going flights and redirect all in coming". Well, that was it. I knew I was in for the long haul. The first thing I did from there was go to Burger King and buy like two Whoppers and a bunch of smaller burgers. I put what I didn't eat into my back pack along with the BK drink cup. Then I headed on to the pier to find a couch while there was still a chance that one was available. I got lucky.

You said you were on C? You might have seen me, I had a little flat head screw driver in my back pack(Pre 9/11). I went all around the airport that first night and shut off the lights so people could sleep. I still remember, as I was walking, how it seemed I was in a boarder camp of some third world country. Families had staked out their territory. Their children's shoes were lined up on the floor as they slept. Clothing draped over chairs. It was like tent city.

Do you remember they let the bar stay open that first night? 2 o'clock in the morning and here comes the drunks! What a mess. Then at about 4 AM they brought the planes back that had been on the runway for over twelve hours. I can still she the faces of the passengers as they came off the plane. I also remember the group of moms that went to help them and find them a place to sleep. There were already so many people on the floor it was not an easy thing to find a place to rest.

Another thing I remember is how at first there was order. But as the hours weened on this order started to fade. Cell phones were starting to die. Pay phone coin boxes were starting to fill.

Mothers were having to start networking with each other for diapers and baby formula. The line at Burger King must have been a half mile long. After the first day the whole airport smelled like a locker room. The book store was making a killing until I made an announcement that we shouldn't buy any more books. We should start a book swap. I can't believe I did that. But I did.

On my third day there the sun was out and the runways were clear. I knew today was the day to break free. I went down to the front counter area. It was practically a riot. So I left there and went down pier C. It was there I found one lonely attendant working. She was the only one on the pier. She was working on putting a flight together for Miami. Well I was going to Melbourne. Close enough!!

At first there was no on the piers. They were all out front. Slowly the piers started filling.

Another problem had developed. The screens said our gate was flights for BOTH Florida and Wisconsin. People started arguing about where the plane was going to go.(Like they actually had a say in this decision) I stuck close to my new friend. I even stepped up when a guy started yelling at her. I put the guy in his place. I knew I earned favor with her in doing that.

At one point her phone rang. When she hung up she said she had to leave for a while. I told her I would hold down the fort till she got back. She laughed and took off.

So there I am. Pier C, Gate 8. I think it was Gate 8. Any way, the phone stars ringing, and everyone looks at me! So.. I answered it. "Pier C Gate 8". "Yea, there's a plane here", "Your welcome". I told everyone it was someone asking if there was a plane parked at our gate. They said they were gonna tug it out and tug in another one.

About 20 minutes later the phone ring again. "Pier C Gate 8", "Yea they tugged it out" "The new one is coming in now. It just go to the gang way. Wait a minute... There's a guy in the cockpit window. He's waving and pointing. You know what? I think he wants someone to come open the gangway door" "OK, we'll be here". 10 minutes later a janitor shows up and unlocks the gang way.

Finally, my girl is back. I tell her all that has transpired. She looks at me with amazement and thanks me.

Hey here come the crew. UH OH! Half the crew say their here to fly to Wisconsin, half say their going to FL. What a mess. People start getting upset again. After about another hour we end up with two complete crews!! It's a 50/50 folks. It could go either way. Suddenly the phone rings. My girl answers it. The decision is final. This plane is going south. Now I got some really pissed of folks. I mean they are screaming! One of the women looked like she was about to punch the attendant. Again I step in, "Hey!, the decision has been made. But you have to understand something. You may not have a plane, but you do have a crew. Where ever this crew goes? You follow. Got that!" Well this was something for the Wisconsin people to hang onto and it calmed them down.

The plane starts boarding. Mind you, I don't have a ticket for this flight. Finally, when all seems lost, the attendant turns to me and says, "look I know you don't have a ticket for this flight. But I got one seat left and it's yours if you want it".

Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.

Well, some do turn a profit. It's the old legacy airlines with massive overhead, old thinking, more complicated schedules, and big fat executive salaries that are always crying poverty. The so-called budget airlines like Jet Blue, Airtran, Southwest have all been squeeking out a profit, at least more than the big guys, But really the biggest factor for any airline is fuel.

I would like to remind everyone that the penalty for violating this 3 hour rule is $27,500 PER PASSENGER. A plane with 100 passengers would cost an airline 2.75 million dollars if they were penalized, so perhaps they will think twice before trying to jump through the loop hole. They better be really darn sure they can back up their claims before going over the 3 hours or risk a massive penalty. Too bad passengers couldn't get some of the that money.