You should check your facts on your own, and not rely on the Becks and Palins.

Check your facts.

Jay, it is very much in question how many of the founders viewed religion, considering many who came to America were in escape of religious persecution.

Secondly, when have you ever heard the term "Atlantic Triangular Trade"? It's a joke. The trading of slaves was not comparable to tobacco or molasses. Call it what it was, and don't forget to mention how so many Christians owned slaves as well.

I did - read the writings of the founding fathers. What would you cite differently?

They came to escape religious persecution from the Church of England and the Catholic church - but they were Christians who felt differently, based upon their Christian beliefs. There is an opinion that the "separation of church and state" was actually the FF"s not wanting a "state church" that receives tax money - as in Europe even today. The Supreme Court used scriptural references in their decisions, up until the 1940's.

Don't know what that "Atlantic Traingular Trade" thing is - seems odd, but we haven't seen the entire context, either. Christians owned slaves, but Christians also fought and died to free them. Most faiths did own slaves at some point in their history - it's not an issue of faith, but culture.

Why do you suppose there are no references to Jesus in the Constitution?

Good point, Peterb

Jay-1819666 I think you are confusing the founding fathers, a group of very secular men with the puritan religious pilgrims; there is a 150 year difference and a whole century of Enlightenment between the two groups.

There was a lot of interest for science and even Freemason membership amongst the founding fathers that have nothing to do with the 1956 "In God we trust" motto or any of today's neo-cons Christian Taliban attempts on our society.

At the time when your Constitution was written, Kevin, ALL men walked around in wigs!

Did you know they used to hold Sunday church services in the capital.

Texas Board of Education = Texas Taliban. Now, as a father in Texas, I will have to teach my daughter twice as much, what is in the textbooks and the TRUTH.

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites"

–Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

Seems like Jefferson's thoughts on Christianity were pretty clear.

A significant portion of the founding fathers were deists, NOT Christians, and many who were Christian held fairly secular beliefs. It's all their in their writings, unless you choose to ignore them.

Sorry Jay18... but you are wrong. Our Founding Fathers were trying to keep religion OUT of government. England had only recently finished many years of bloody religious wars fought between CHRISTIANS and they remembered this. After all the original colonists were fleeing Christian persecution, upon Christians! The US is a great country because (for the most part) religion has been kept out of our national decision making.

You put your hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution, NOT the other way around.

Radical conservatives just can't seem to accept that this country was also founded on the principals of religious freedom: that means, again, Separation of Church and State.

Religious whackos are just really afraid of losing control of the people, I mean, money.

@Jay-1819666 It's a fact, and not an opinion, that the founding fathers were deists and not christian conservatives. It's also a fact that Jefferson wrote multiple letters to various religious groups specifically saying that the US *is not* a christian nation. No matter how much the christians try to make it so.

What would be done in Texas is unconstitutional and clearly violates church and state separation rewriting history that this is a christian nation.

I can't find anywhere in the Constitution where is specifically states that the U.S. is a Christian nation based upon Christian values. It does refer to God for guidance and humility. On the dollar bill it says..."In God We Trust"...doesn't say in Jesus We Trust or Moses We Trust or Mohammed We Trust.

More democrat than republican (representatives) have committed adultery.

Okay, who the @!$%# cares. SERIOUSLY off topic.

TOTALLY FALSE!! Fact!! NOT opinion!

What we call "Judeo Christian values" are really inherited values of "Sumerian Mesopotamian values" and is even shown on many government buildings depicting Greek Gods not a Christian God.

It's bad enough the schools don't talk about how many of the Founding Fathers were DEIST not Christian - now they want to teach lies, and "minimize" Jefferson because he was not Christian?! The Christians who came here to get away from religious persecution in England, not because they believed in religious persecution and wanted to copy that model here!!!

If any of these things are facts, anyone can present any fact in a way that persuades another toward her or his beliefs. To downplay the role of Thomas Jefferson is taking facts and presenting them in a way that does not leave the listener/reader able to form an informed opinion.

Besides, I really do believe that some people in the state of Texas have really gone around the bend. They are the Texas Taliban.

Yes, the country was founded on Christian principles. Slavery was introduced in America 2 centuries before the fouding fathers. one of the reasons given by Thomas Jefferson for the separation from Great Britain was a desire to rid America of the evil of slavery imposed on them by the British. The majority of the founding fathers were against slavery and it was the founding fathers who led the revolution against slavery. Also, separation of church and state was a term used by Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Church assuring the church that the state would stay out of the church. Not the other way around as many would have us believe. There is no use of the terminology separation of church and state in the constitution.

The country was founded on the principal of religious FREEDOM for all (not just Christianity). Church and State should and need to be separate or there could be all sorts of ugly consequences (people being stoned to death for showing their ankles, etc.).

As a Texan (one who actually thinks), I'm disgusted by this action. The board appears to be trying to send us back to a time where the men were MEN and the rest of us "knew our place" (which was usually bullied into silence). What's next, are they going to take away a woman's right to vote, make it illegal for those considered "less than" (because of race, sex, or contradicting religious views) to obtain work, or are we headed back into segregation? Oh wait, we're half way there already! The conservatives need to take a step back, take off their holier than thou glasses, and take a good look at the needs of the whole country (not just their own). It won't happen but, it needs to!

Jay: someone skipped history class, didn't they? "Christian principals"?? Nonsense--Do some READING would ya? (unless you were educated in Texas and have learned there is no Thomas Jefferson)

"Notes on Virginia," Thomas Jefferson:

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

@W. J. Scott While diversity is great, diversity of language in the US helps no one. Language is a unifying factor, allows each of us to communicate with each other. Once could argue that the US did not become even close to a world power until we had a common language.

This country was most assuredly founded on Christian principles!!! They put in about the separation of church and state because they didn't want the government to run the churches. It's called freedom of (not from) religion. God used to bless America but now that we have taken Him out of everything, not so much!!!

I know I'm coming to this late and will be completely ignored, but I've got a degree in history. I've studied the American Revolution. I've studied the colonial period. Believe it or not, not all of our Founding Fathers were Christians. Some of them didn't even want any mention of any devine being in any government documents. These are facts. What the Texas Board of Education is trying to peddle as facts is a farce. I know that you can find some books and things that support this crap by historians, but they're never taken seriously in the field, just as the far left nut jobs are never taken seriously either.

Jay, no one is denying that our country was founded on christian principles (note the lack of capitalization as I'm a realist), but the ff did not use all of the principles listed in the bible or any other religious document and we have over the course of 200+ years made changes in our constitution (the amendments) to protect the rights of all of our citizens, even the ones that we did not originally include as citizens of our nation. All of this is historical fact and I believe should be taught in any social studies curriculum. But I would also want to know where is the research to back making the changes to any curricula so that we are providing a fair and accurate education to all of our students. As a member of our local board of education where I live, that would be one of my responsibilities in educating our students.

We have the ACLU, and other extreme left-wing atheists (UnGodly), who are the one's trying to re-write US History. Crime in our public schools has gone up, children have no respect for their teachers and others in authority anymore, what does that tell you. The US Supreme Court took God out of the schools back in the early 60's and schools have gone downhill ever since. I'm a Democrat but by God I believe in GOD and believe he should have a place back in our public schools. Yes, I'm a member of the older generation when we had prayer in schools, (not a time of silence) as it is now in schools.

If you non-Christian, non-God believers don't like it form your own schools and see how many kids you have attending them, and how often you have to call law enforcement in to quell a fight, or arrest a drug dealing student.

I think what I find most interesting about today's string of posts is the unusually high degree of thought and careful attention to facts instead of name-calling and bluster. Taking a scan through the posts, one finds a very high number of votes for historical accuracy and a champion effort to set the record straight...

...and so I find myself wondering where the usual pack of loose cannons are today? Why is this not a topic that results in the usual over-the-top insanity or the leaps of logic that make a kangaroo blush? Why has today's topic resulted in carefully considered and highly praised conversation?

One can detect conservative and liberal authors writing on the side of historical accuracy, and only a very few (the ones who apparently slept through high school history) spouting the more typical hate-speak ...

A zealot has somehow found himself in the capacity to influence what parts of what facts will be presented to children and how that will be done. Are people angry that someone is willing to further dumb-down text books (and limit their own children's competitive advantages when applying for jobs/colleges later in life) or are people angry over the misrepresentation of facts in general? Is this topic touching something within us perhaps more fundamental to our American ideals than the usual news of the day?

*****************************!!!******************************

I am asking the readers to answer two questions: What is most offensive regarding this issue and how can we address the problem (real solutions)?

I won't say much but Freemason's are intertwined heavily in Christianity in most jurisdictions. though Christianity is not a requirement only that one believes in god.

Separation of church and state was that the state was to keep hands off of religion, but the text has been bastardized to a completely incorrect and probably opposite meaning now. the government controls what religion can do, even how many signs the church can have up with their name on it. religion is part of history yet it can not be taught in schools even though the original schools were taught and funded by the church. So the separation clearly is not what it was meant to be.

I don't know exactly what our forefathers believed, but i do know religion was a big part of it. if it wasn't Christianity there was still religion. but I doubt one could state Christianity was not a belief of any of the founding fathers. how can so many people be obsessively lumped into one group.

What is really scary about this. Is that some of us actually believe this is a good thing. All it does is lead to bigotry and lies. Are we also going to return to teaching that Columbus discovered America.

Well he did not. You cannot discover a land when humans are already there. The Native American found this land first. And that is fact. Second ideas of how our Union was to come to be was taken from Native Americans. Europeans from England had a monarchy while the only democracy was from France.

What other lies are they going to say? Like the whites won at the Alamo? Hell bet they will even lie and say Cowboys were first white? They were not they were trained by Mexicans called Braceros.

You can try to rewrite history here in the USA but it will not work. Some out here actually know the truths and respect the idea of it.And we actually learn that true Patriotism comes through it. Not by being a liar and trying to hide from it. But embracing it and growing and learning from it.

True patriotism is knowing the bad that has happened. Knowing that even though there are those amongst us that cant get over the hurdle of bigotry. Others can still overcome it in this country and become whatever they want. That we stand for Freedom for all. And anyone has the equal rights to the pursuit of happiness.

Bet the rest of the world is laughing at these idiots.They probably think that they are so ashamed of our past they cannot face it. But they must remember that some of us have grown and learned the hard lessons that our shady history has taught. And we have become the greatest nation on the face of the planet because of it.

The lie is dead Europeans did not discover America. Mongoloids did thousands of years prior and English has never been the only language spoken here. Over 500 different tongue's have always been a part of this land and always will be. This type of teaching keeps those who only speak English ignorant. It is the dumbing down of America in plain sight. Next they will want to teach the world is flat.

ya bunch of Heathens

Nancy Pelosi Calls For Catholic Church Leaders to Work With Government On The Amnesty Issue. Wheres the Outrage?

You are correct about Christians founding the country. They did not allow the federal government to establish a religon. Congress was not allowed to establish a relgion. All powers not granted to the federal government are reserved to the states. In other words Congress can not establish one. Though the states can but they do not have to.

Please define your usage of "fact." Try looking up "opinion" in the dictionary, adn you will find what you call "facts."

Long live the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

It was founded on religious freedom. To pray or not to pray is MY right.

The U.S. was founded, alone among nations, on Enlightenment principles, not religious principles. There was a reason; many people were here as religious refugees and wanted to be free to practice their religion. If we were to abandon that freedom, which religion would we establish? Islam? Mormonism? Roman Catholicism? Some other brand of Christianity? Judaism? See my point??

If you think these are fact, then you must already be a republican psuedo christian living in Texas

Tim-567920 - well put. It's crazy how christians don't understand this.

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

What would you have us teach our children then?

That a bunch of lunatics came to this country to give us rights that at the time were unique and very much considered treasonous. Only now we have decided that the founding of this country and the growth it has went through means nothing, therefore it's not worth teaching you.

If we had not been shaped by the past how would we have grown into the present. Unfortunately what we are teaching children now is 1) it is okay to disrespect your elders (publicly banning Presidential speeches in schools), 2) do not respect your fellow man's right to a difference of opinion (instead MAKE them believe what you do even if you have to beat the sh** out of them or kill them), and 3) you don't need to be your own person with values because your politicians in charge will decide what is good for you because quite frankly if you are not in political power you are an IDIOT!!!.

Well I will not teach my children your thoughts because I had founding fathers that believed it is okay to have your own opinion, to believe that anything is possible, and to respect the highest office even if you DON"T agree with the person in charge!!!!!!!!!

izzypatch, The best part of life is holding your own council, taking responsibility for your actions, learning from your mistakes and above all respect and honor all people regardless of their opinions. It doesn't bother me that there are clusters of people needing to be clones of each other if this gets them through their life. I just don't want them to take away my freedom to live as I please in turn.

These are the kind of values we give to our children and they learn to be respectful, as it is the strongest among treatments of each other. They know that no matter how much someone may want to provoke them they can respectfully decline the invitation. We've become a society of hysteria and it isn't very flattering.

So crazy Christians,republican pseudo Christian living in Texas, well put. It's crazy how Christians don't understand , ETC. So would yall say these things apply Nancy Pelosi ? Did you fools not hear what she said? She wants the church to join the state in a overt political campaign on immigration! Thats 180 degrees from separation DUH! She is speaker of the house in case you did not know. She is third in line for the Presidency and you are angry with social studies standards in Texas? Cultist suffering from Stockholm syndrome never cease to amaze me.

Actually they were Deists. Keep lying. Just go on with it.

See the Treaty of Tripoli.

Our Nation was founded on Enlightenment Principles. The Christian Bigotry is why they left other countries for freedom here. Freedom from people who wanted to sneak state religion into everyone's lives.

Freedom from you...

More revisioist history to support the christian talban.

It is not a fact, it is a lie.

Seems like Jefferson's thoughts on Christianity were pretty clear.

The problem is, graphic, according to the TSB there's no such thing as Jefferson anymore. He's gone the way of slavery, according to them.

Several of the founding fathers were in fact atheist. They knew how important it was to keep the state and church untied

Some above appear not to know that slaves were made slaves in Africa by Africans. They were partly sold by their parents, some volunteered, and a few were sold by their capturers. They were then shipped to Europe and the colonies. The slave markets were, and still are, in Africa. When they were educated in the colonies, they were mostly educated as, and by, Christians.

Texas and Education Standards do not belong in the same sentence.

These changes have very little to do with Any sort of Christian values it's just these people abusing religion to instill a right wing bias because they have a delusion of there being a liberal bias in education.

Can anyone cite information that the founding fathers were deists?

You are correct. The country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, but their remains many other founding principles, and one of those 'other' principles is that their was to be separation of church and state (government). The truth is the truth! Part of the truth is not the truth but serves to confuse and deceive. Many of the founding fathers of this country were either agnostic,or, in some cases, atheists. Not all of them were Christian. Try reading some biographies of Thomas Jefferson, you may be amazed at what he thought of religion, God, and Spirituality. Incidently, the U.S. Constitution is very,very clear on the matter of separation of church and state!It is SETTLED LAW, thank God!

If our founding father were all Christians, then lets bring prayers back in schools.

no way jay :

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

You must rewrite history to prove the United States of America was founded on "Christian" principles. Thomas Jefferson was a Diest. George Washington and Benjamin Franklin were agnostics. In the Constitutional Congress, the Christians were in the minority. These are the facts!

As stated before, the founding fathers were not Christian. There are government documents from the era stating that the United States is not a Christian Nation, a document that the U.S. Senate unanimously approved.."As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion". Treaty of Tripoli 1797. The statement..actually article 11 was published in 3 newspapers from the day and President Adams proclamation that he had seen and ratified the document and required all citizens to observe and fulfill the treaty.

Also, for good measure, our legal code is not based on the 10 commandments either. The American legal system was based on the British legal system which in turn was based on the Roman Empire....not the Holy Roman Empire.

These are things you learn when you read proper history books, and not just accept what your parents told you....because the only reason they think the way they do is because their parents told them ...and so on and so on.

I do know that the majority of the founding fathers were agnostic, even better atheist. Their intentions were better supplied with a christian undertone. For a confused, disillunished and unsophistcated society to be commanded, religion was the best adhesive for mental control.

I was born in Houston in 1962, thank God I was rasied in southern California.

If they want to buy textbooks that are just lies, then just make damn sure that your school district does not buy them. Punish the publishing house for catering to this kind of crap. Just because some morons allowed themselves to be manipulated into voting for these American talibans to create their own little theocracy in America, is no excuse for the publishing house to cater to false and created history. Soon if Texas says that 2 plus 2 equals 7, the math texts will be calling that the "triangular" product of the sum of two dimensions, or some crap like that. And because so many people have already been dumbed down and rotted their minds ability to comprehend by watching too much Faux "News" and Glen Beck, they will just go along with it and pretend they understand it and defend it as their moral duty to being a good god fearin' patriotic American!

Changing the way kids are taught to brainwash them into thinking just a certain way is just that...brainwashing. The decision to rewrite history in Texas is not only narrow minded, but "political correctness" gone mad. Constitutional Republic? Who are they kidding. The reason the constitution (and the bill of rights) is the way it is...is because our founding fathers were wise enough to realize the neccessity of not letting the church control this country's government as they did in England under Kind George.

I love how stupid all these liberals are. So completely miseducated. Of course America was founded on Judeo-Christian values. That is an indisputable fact ti anyone who even has a clue. The idea that our inherent human rights are endowed by our CREATOR would be one of those values. But I love how these moon-bats are proving so obviously that this change in the cirriculum is so badly needed. Even though it has little to nothing to do with any "Christian" agenda.

One thing I learned LONG ago was simply not to even attempt to argue with haters & discriminators, of which there seem to be a VERY large number emerging in today's world. THAT is MUCH scarier to me than anything mentioned in this entire article.

You WON'T win against them, so there's absolutely no reason to try. They are always right, you are always wrong. What they practice is identical, in my opinion, to how people of color were treated 50-75 years ago, but they've just changed their target.

It's no longer cool or acceptable to discriminate against blacks, which is exactly as it SHOULD be. They, or any other minority on this Earth for that matter, are just as important as anyone else. With that avenue to express their permanent need for hatred no longer available, it's just been moved over to Christians .... no matter if they are white, black, yellow, or red. Actually trying to RESPECT every person the same is much too difficult & just not very exciting.

My greatest hope is that some day, the hate-preachers & discriminators will realize that THEIR way isn't necessarily the ONLY way. It's actually not that hard. I'm a Christian & proud of it. But you can believe whatever you want & I'll treat you no different. All I ask in return is that you don't continually bash my beliefs & constantly try your hardest to prevent me from practicing those beliefs in this great country.

You'll get the same respect from me. And actually, you ALREADY have it, since the GREAT majority of Christians I know (alot) VERY rarely launch into any type of anti-atheist/anti-agnostic rant. That's because we respect your decision to practice, or not practice, whatever you choose to.

Saddly, as has been shown here to no great surprise, the reverse usually dosn't apply. That's my greatest wish, that people would get all that hate out of their way of thinking & start respecting their neighbours & fellow citizens. But even more sadly, I don't see that happening for a LONG time .... but most likely just getting even worse.

Now have at it, because I know you want to & probably can't keep from it.

Jay, America was not founded on Christian principles. It was founded BY Christians advocating the belief that ALL people should be free from persecution as they practice the religion of their choice, or as they practice NO religion. The only problem with Christianity is Christians.

Jay, #1, the country may have been founded on socalled christian principles but that does not make this a christian country.

But then considering how the First Americans, also known as the American Indians, were treated, their land stolen/seized and herded on to reservations, starved and willfully infected with deadly disease that they had no immunity to, the distruction of their societies and livelihood and the various other injustices that were meted out on the original owners of this land, it makes one wonder what sort of christian principles were in effect at that time.

It certainly wasn't ' love thy neighbour as thy self', or 'thou shall not kill', or any of the other 10 commandments imo.

One could therefore state that this country was founded on greed, covetiousness, selfishness, insensitivity, racism, heartlessness, intolerance, forceful breeding and enslaving of others for profit, murder/killings, violence etc and on all the other santimounious spiel passing for christian principles, that is still alive today in the 21 st century imo.

It is stated that Christopher Columbus discovered this country, which is odd really as to the Indians or indigenous people who were living here for ever before Old Chris turned up to do his land and treasures grab, did not know that they were lost. LOL

Those folks in Texas can willfully sanitize or rewrite this country's history all they want, it will only make the children of this country be looked upon as being ignorant.

For those who still believe the old addage that 'ignorance is bliss' should realize that in this day and age ....ignorance is not bliss.

Other countries know the history of this country and have documentation of same. LOL Talk about hiding one's head in the sand..... delusional.....

Although it would be sad if other countries' children know more about the real history of this country more than the children here.

But then..... what new....... same old same old...

Perhaps these folks forgot about the christian principle about 'not bearing false witness' ie lying......LOL

Actually our constitution was written by Thomas Jefferson. I man that edited the Bible to exclude any mention of miracles and magic. Sounds Christian to me - not really. Washington was a well known deist. Just some more facts that the Theonuts don't want our children learning. When will they get it that "faith" is dependent on knowledge. Knowing the facts and science and still believing in God is faith. Believing in God because you've been locked in a closet with no education is ignorance and stupidity. Stop trying to convert my children by putting road blocks to their potential. I don't want my children to be mental midgets like Palin, Beck, Paul, Limbaugh and everyone in Texas. I know there are a small minority of intelligent people in Texas - my advice is leave. Eventually, the others will go the way of the neanderthals.

yeah interesting msnbc picks the worst one to report on. its their job. you check your facts. and dont use the bible for your fact checking.

This nation was founded by people who were looking to worship as they pleased without fear of government involvement. Yes most were in fact christian but they founded this country to worship as they pleased not as a christian nation.

Bull@!$%# this country was founded on Christian principles. This country was founded on theft , rape & murder......& frankly .. considering what's been going on for at least the last 30 years with the murder rate , the amount of rape that happens & the theft that takes place on Wall Street, the U.S. is living up to its founding principles VERY well.

Let's go by what is right, not what anyone has said before. Texas doesn't need snopes monkey. We should use justice as a criteria, not religion in EVERY case.

shinny4801@mypacks.netwhere are these "christian principles" in the Constitution? (cue crickets)

There is no mention in the Constitution of "God" or "Jesus" nor "The Bible" nor any direct quotes of any scriptures, not even a mention of any of the "Ten Commandments". Indeed, the only religious mention in the Constitution is "No religious test shall be required for any public office", and the First Amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof". Considering the tendency of Christians to try to convert or suppress anyone who doesn't believe as they do, neither of those mentions could honestly be considered "Christian Principles".

Now, granted, some of the Founding Fathers were indeed Christians, but they took great care to preserve religious liberty by keeping Church and State separate. Unlike some today, they knew that to combine Church and State results in corruption of both Church and State and loss of freedom.

We hold these truths to be self-evident ,that all men are created equal ,that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain un aleinable rights.......... seems pretty cut and dried to me about the foundinf fathers belief in GOD

Our country was not founded on Christian principles. Most of the founding fathers weren't religious at all. Our founding fathers were very, very selective about the wording of our Constitution and the Bill of Rights, because they came over here to escape religious persecution. Now, it seems that we're headed right back to the original loss of freedoms from which they escaped . The Puritans and Pilgrims burned people at the stake because some didn't believe exactly as they did..."they" thought specific people were witches...they stoned some, hanged many. Texas has one of the worst records in America on graduation rates...drop=outs...and funding their colleges and universities. It reminds me of the feudalistic approach, when only the rich were allowed to actually be educated. That way, the "ruling" class controlled the peasants and kept them in the dark, lest they try to overthrow their kings. The Muslims have religious "states" and they've never left the Middle Ages. What on earth has happened to "thinking" human beings?

This will be Europe before the Renaissance in the fourteenth century. Heaven help this country!

If one more person uses the term "real patriots" I am going to puke on their hypocritical self absorbed narcissistic shoes. Calling others America hating communists and yourself a "Patriot" makes neither true. It is just obnoxious absurd nonsense. You are not the majority. You are not right. You are childish.

Ah yes, THIS explains the separation of church and state language in the Constitution...all those "Christian principles you claim America was founded upon."

My take is that no federal funding should supplement Texan schools that believe in bypassing Constitutional law. Let them pay for their whimsy.

We hold these truths to be self-evident ,that all men are created equal ,that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain un aleinable rights.......... seems pretty cut and dried to me about the foundinf fathers belief in GOD

Please note that they used the word "creator" and not "Jesus" or "God". "Creator" is a religiously neutral term that could just as easily apply to Allah or Shiva or Ahuramazda or Babalu or any other deity, or for that matter to the process of evolution, or even ordinary parents (unless, of course, you believe in the Stork theory).

Whether they believed in God really isn't the point, the point is they took great pains to make the new government neutral on religion in order to make it religiously free.

Minicam, Its not about hating christians! Its about preventing the bigoted haters within the far right minority that calls itself christian conservatism from trying to force us to believe and live like they do. I have no issues whatsoever and actually a ton of respect for christians that live up to the teachings of christ. I have contempt for those who call themselves christian then go out and plunder the world around them, deny other their rights, and are rude and hateful in every way. I am pretty god knows if people cheat like this. Sitting smugly in church is not going to remove all evidence of opression and bigotry the other six days and 22 hours of the week.

The backlash is against people like that, sitting on a board of education, making decisions for everyone else.

I'm not sure where you you got your facts but the facts are that the founding fathers, by and large were deists, meaning they believe in a higher power, a spritual being as it were, and that being doesn't even need to go by the name of GOD. Unitarian Universalists are the predominant religion of the founding fathers, not Catholics, or Protestants, or Quakers, or Evangelical Christians. And the thing they valued most was separation of church and state. You need to take a trip to Boston and learn your history of the founding fathers and their religious beliefs. Even Jefferson wrote his own version of the Bible and I can tell you if you read it it doesn't even remotely resemble the stuff you are espousing. Get religious zealout teachings out the schools and teach real science, history, math etc. And leave religious theory to the church to teach outside school. Unless you misguided belief things we should all believe your particular dogma. As a student of Buddhism I am appalled. Yes, I am a lifelong born and raised American.

Too bad you only heard part of the rewrite. The slave trade is now called "Atlantic triangular trade" and there is a suggestion that McCarthyism was not so bad. Pick your examples a little better so they reflect the whole, not just your part.

Slavery, the antithesis of freedom, the basis of a portion of our American economy and culture, at one point in time. To diminish this fact in the telling of history serves the good of no one.

This is what our nation did, North and South: We allowed slavery and all its regrettable consequence to occur here. This history reverberates today as disturbed thoughts and feelings without regard to race.

Previous Americans permitted slave holding. This history disturbs us still. Trying to deny it serves no productive end, but purpetuates the hatred, terror and fear this history created... for people of ALL races.

It is time to reclaim our conscience and admit the wrong, more so than we have done. It is time to move past this regrettable feature of our nation, not write it out of history books.

Let's face it, not deny it. Let's heal our hearts, restore our souls and move past this historic wrong.

This was an American holocaust. To deny it keeps the wrong alive.

Write the truth in black and white. This is how we heal and become strong; this is how we progress as a nation, historically and in present day.

Slavery, the antithesis of freedom, was the basis of a portion of our American economy and culture, at one point in time. To diminish this fact in the telling of history serves the good of no one.

This is what our nation did, North and South: We allowed slavery and all its regrettable consequence to occur here. This history reverberates today as disturbed thoughts and feelings without regard to race.

Previous Americans permitted slave holding. This history disturbs us still. Trying to deny it serves no productive end, but purpetuates the hatred, terror and fear this history created... for people of ALL races.

It is time to reclaim our conscience and admit the wrong, more so than we have done. It is time to move past this regrettable feature of our nation, not write it out of history books.

Let's face it, not deny it. Let's heal our hearts, restore our souls and move past this historic wrong.

This was an American holocaust. To deny it keeps the wrong alive.

Write the truth in black and white. This is how we heal and become strong; this is how we progress as a nation, historically and in present day.

Treaty of Tripoli

The 1797 Treaty of Tripoli was signed by George Washington, endorsed by John Adams, unanimously ratified by the Senate declared that “the Government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion.” This statement seems very clear that America was NOT founded upon Christian principles.

You all seem to forget one thing: it was Texas that gave us george bush. One disaster (bush) followed by another (TX textbooks). Enough said. Maybe we should give that pathetic state back to Mexico.

You do not understand the term "fact."

I moved from Texas in 1975, my wife and both daughters were born in Texas, so I can say this...

Everything in Texas is big, and that includes GOD.

Texans believe that the United States was not founded on the Christian Religion, but on Christian beliefs... and it was.

We are a Christian Nation.

The "SEVEN" as they will be called, have taken it a little too far, I am afraid, but, the liberals have had their way for ten years, they removed GOD from our school, and it's not working.

The SEVEN are just trying to bring him back... I can't blame them.

Now that being said....

The part about Joseph Raymond McCarthy being a GOOD guy, that won't fly?

Call Slavery what it was!

Kennedy and Reagan don't have their middle names in the standards, so leave out Barack Obama's!

Jefferson did what Jefferson did, no more no less.

Expansionism was just that... America got bigger and we expanded.

Moral majority, got a little too moral.

NRA... TEXAS, forget about it, you will never take our gun away, EVER!

The first amendment is clear, Church and state should be separated.(OUR FOUNDING FAUTHERS DID THAT TO KEEP OUR COUNTRY FROM BEING PUNISHED/JUDGED FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD, WHO WERE NOT CHRISTIAN).

Separate Church and state, NOT Christian principles and state.

We were BORN of a Christian Nation.

Remember America, what your people fought for... and died for.

You are being soundred by people not from here, their blood was not shed here...

Their faith is not your faith.

That and liberals who wouldn't shed their blood, if you paid them, they were the first to burn their draft cards, and invade Canada.Their DNA is weak milk-toast.

This is TEXAS, we payed for it, their our kids, it has worked for us, we are not perfect, just trying to do the best for our kids. Yeah, I know we still love GOD and all, STUPID US, RIGHT?

We'll see....

Stick together... Be STRONG.

Jay,

In 1787, John Adams penned and the other Founding Fathers approved the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11 of the Treaty is states, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". In addition, every Founding Father were also members of The Freemasons. The Freemasons believed that no one religion was more correct than another. This is why you will find the symbols and texts from every religion represented in their headquarters. I am not sure where you get your "facts", but I don't think the Founding Fathers could have made it any clearer.

A US General recently stated, "The Enemy of my Enemy is Education."

Texas writes school books? No wonder our education is so lousy.

Textbooks are about FACTS not opinions. They can write all the editorial crap they want, but history is history, slaves were slaves - now just what are they going to all the slaves held in Egypt during the building or the pyramids, or those held during Greek and Roman times? What is needed is less white-washing of our past history and more critical evaluation using critical reasoning skills. Critical as in critique.

Founding Fathers were Deists, NOT Christians. You're brainwashed.

???Just burn Texas ??? What a barbaric thing to say. Where's the tolerance in that statement? You'd rather a state, or idea, burn then to consider points of view other than your own? Sounds closed minded to me. Why are people so tolerant of every religion except Christianity? Why do these people want to deny their history? Are these people flagging all the comments they don't agree with to have them removed? I don't see many comments with opposing views. What happened to free speech?

And real patriots don't want your Progressive, Communist intrpretation of the history of this country. When you go to the original documents and understand them they way our ancestors did, you can't help but see the damage that has been done to the story of this country, by Revisionists and Modernists who judge everything by standards which didn't exist before 1900.

Most Texas parents do not agree with the propossed changes to our children's Social Studies and History curriculum. So burning Texas is just ignorant to say the least.

And this country was founded in part on Religious freedom and tolerance to escape the flip flopping Religions of the British Monarchy who did impose their faith on the people of the time with dealy consequences. We are putting 20 and 21st century ideals on 1700's meaning and are coming up very short. I think the founding fathers meant that the Governement could not sanction and impose one religion over another on the citizens of this country. Not that Governement should be totally barren of religion.

How could it be really. Beliefs, faith, morals, whatever you want to call it are carried with us everyday, everywhere we go and in the decisions we make about our lives and the choices we make. In 200 years we have gone from the right to express your religion without fear of persecution, to you can believe anything you want, but just don't be Christian. So much for religious tolerance.

Separation of church and state was that the state was to keep hands off of religion, but the text has been bastardized to a completely incorrect and probably opposite meaning now. the government controls what religion can do, even how many signs the church can have up with their name on it. religion is part of history yet it can not be taught in schools even though the original schools were taught and funded by the church. So the separation clearly is not what it was meant to be.

I don't know exactly what our forefathers believed, but i do know religion was a big part of it. if it wasn't Christianity there was still religion. but I doubt one could state Christianity was not a belief of any of the founding fathers. how can so many people be obsessively lumped into one group. History is history teach the truth.

um, i have read the constitution and the declaration of independence, which, by the way, Jefferson was the author of, and separation of church and state was very important. freedom of expression and freedom of choice were paramount. if the people who want to teach their children this white-washed view of history want to continue to home school, well, let them, and God help the children who will one day grow up and if they ever leave Texas will be in for a terrible surprise when they get out into the big bad world and find out everything they were taught was a lie. i grew up in the sixties and i went through school with this same white-washing of america. fortunately for me, i have never stopped learning and through the years i realized that the history i learned was, how can i say, not altogether accurate. the only we can ever make this a truly great country is to acknowledge our role in history honestly. and then we have to understand that we have evolved spiritually, politically, and morally. what our ancestors thought was normal, i.e. slavery, discrimination, laws based on religious values are not correct today. i'm a christian, but i don't want the church to make laws that tell me who i can love, what i can read, watch or listen to, what i can do with my life, my body or my children. the conservatives need to accept the fact that there are many, many sects of christianity and not all of them agree with fundamentalism, in fact most don't. there is not discrimination against christianity in this country. that's a lot of right wing propaganda. there has been a backlash against the radical fundamentalism and for good reason. jesus taught us to be tolerant and fundamentalism is not tolerant of anyone who doesn't agree with them. jesus taught us to be compassionate, to be good samaritans, fundamentalism is not compassionate towards anyone who does not agree with them. i belonged to a apostolic church for awhile when i was young. they were really nice people who thought everyone else in the world was going to burn in hell. one of the elders called a group of children he saw at the park one day 'outworlders'? that's when i knew i was in the wrong place and i quit.

this texas law does not teach the philosophy of jesus, because it doesn't tell the truth. lying is unchristian. denying the ravages and cruelties of slavery by using euphemistic(sp?) wording, is dishonest. ignoring probably the greatest founding father we had because he was an adovcate of separation of church and state is lying by omission. this is not a christian nation. this is a FREE nation and if we 'liberals'...i mean christians, have anything to say about it, it will always be a free nation.

You know whats ironic Alessa the meaning of liberal is giving. It is a so called Christan attribute. Yet the conservatives hate liberals. Or being liberal. I think Jesus was a Liberal. Socialist as well. Maybe they hate that they should share according to the teachings of Jesus. And turn the other check, love thy neighbor they cannot seem to do any of that. Mexico is our neighbor and they hate them and want to build a wall even hum.

hello people...it doesn't say burn Texas. It says burn all the books in Texas. & I'm pretty sure it was sarcasm. Read it again.

Alessa - thank you for a very thoughtful, intelligent post to this discussion.

That would be appropriate, because from where I sit, Ohio has no principles other than looking to the federal government, meaning the rest of us that work, for a bailout.

Nancy Pelosi Calls For Catholic Church Leaders to Work With Government On The Amnesty Issue

Would have to Burn the 8th Congressional District of California As Well !

She also should be impeached! She knows religious organizations are forbidden from participating in overt political campaigning.

Wheres the outrage!

As a resident of Texas, I'm not surprised what comes out of the little brains in this red (neck)state. Just think, the a$$hole that was their governor before royally screwing up our nation started the TAAS testing that was criticized and changed to the TAKS test not long after he left for the White House. There, the idiot pushed No Child Left Behind based on the Texas example. In 2007, the TX state legislature left both tests behind as the pieces of sh*t that they were. Now Texas is back to testing on the content of each course because educators that were smart enough to stand up for the children of Texas made them do it.

They knew that teaching for the tests was not good educational policy. Of course, the a$$hole pushed them and NCLB so that his brother Neil could sell his educational programs to federally funded school districts. And the bottom line is that Texas still has one of the worst academic standings in the nation. You should be real proud of that, Texas School Board Idiots!

As for learning the truth, you don't do it by cherry picking comments from Adams' letters or referring to comments from James Buchanan who was arguably the worst president in our history for not even trying to stop the Civil War. That is, before the aforementioned a-hole crushed ole Buck's ineptitude with his cred as war criminal, liar and general dumbsh*t that completely and repeatedly disregarded our Constitution 'cause Dick said it was OK. Again, Texas should be real proud.

I find it hilarious that the Christian right believes that man walked with the dinosaurs and that their hypocritical leaders over the years like Swaggart, Bakker, Haggard, Ensign, Sanford and too many more to list have claimed the "moral" high ground only to be revealed as lying scumbags. It's the old "Do as I say, not as I do!" routine. At least horny Dems don't preach and then cheat.

It is not funny that you prostelysing Board members want to decide what every student in Texas learns because the bible tells you so. Or so you say. You may be violating the rights of millions of citizens that would like to learn history as it occurred rather than your pathetic version. Shame on you if that crap passes.

If someone hasn't started one, maybe a class action lawsuit would postpone actual printing of any abomination that these crackpots pass. If it does, other states that had previously bought books because Texas has ordered them must take prompt action to inform the publisher that they'll lose their a$$. That will make them charge Texas more to print their lies.

Repugnicans hate to lose big $$$$, so make them suffer!!!

I worked in schools for years and when a great program was in place and proved its worth and all of a sudden a "new" program was put in place. Wow, I thought, it is the same old program with another name and some variations but not worth the money the district funneled into it. The teachers would have a great program going and the children were learning at an amazing speed...here's a new program and it was about the same but all new rules and a lot of wasted paper and supplies for a "surprise" new program. I think the "higher ups" a.k.a. School Board haven't a clue about what they need to do their job and I don't think the district superintendent and the gang have the skills to know how the children learn best. The hanchos go to meetings and gatherings and some slick guy comes in and tries to sell them a new program and they fall for it. They believe if they don't change everything people won't think they are doing a good job when the job they need to do is encourage teachers to create and give them the materials they need to do the job. The classroom teacher is with the children all of the time but do they have the clout to make a district stop wasting money on new programs and fund and have the supplies needed for the one that's working? Not often enough if ever.

They aren't even standards.

They are opinions.

Would you want your children educated on that premise?

You dribbles are not saying a word about all of the socialistic ideas being taught to our children especially in our collages, what kind of country allows their collages to give tenure to a terrorist who back in the sixty's bombed Americana buildings,Our children are being brainwashed into thinking that America is a bad country ,I had to go to my child's grammar school twice about this unamerician agenda they are teaching . You are being feed a lot of propaganda by the liberal press and you don't seem to know you are being led into a socialist state of being,well you had better wake up and read what is in some of the old text books our children have had to read ,pure socialism with a overture of Communism is what was being forced on our children ,History is not being rewritten ,just a lot of the socialist propagandist ideas are being taking out of the childrens books,But the liberal press is not telling you this are they?Well I say more power to Texas and god bless the state for standing up to anti American thinking and socialist ideas ,Finally something is being done about this abomination.

Schools are dropping the Holocaust from history lessons to avoid offending Muslim pupils so you might want to hold off on burning all the books. Those books can be the proof when everyone is in an uproar that it was part of history.

Where are you getting your information from Amron? Everyone is brainwashed but you? What is wrong about the education system being critical of America? This isn't Communist China. We are shown that America has its flaws, like every other country, but there is a lot to be proud of too. You can't make America a better place if you do not know the flaws. Would you rather children didn't learn about America's history of slavery? be taught that it was a bad thing?

You make very little sense with your rant. Is there a bias in history books...possibly, BUT, history books are written by historians, people who have dedicated their lives to the subject, and there is a consensus among these scholars who have looked at more resources from the time than you have or your school board members. Their bias if any is based on personal rather than political bias. Your Schoolboard seems to have a political agenda which seems to be a far worse form of propaganda.

Unfortunately it seems like your world view is firmly formed from the 1950's red manace propoganda.

This poll is intentionally misleading. Thank you MSNBC for exposing so glaringly your bias and prejudice.

First of all, this change in Texas has little to nothing to do with any "Christian" agenda. I has everything to do with balancing the perspectives of how our children are taught about their country. The truth is liberalism has infected the curriculum for decades and has been indoctrinating our youth with lies and propaganda. Some examples are so eggregious as to actually compare our revolutionary founding fathers with fanatical Jihadist Islamic terrorists.

This change is a good thing. A very good thing for all of America. It is not conservatism taking over anything, it is conservatives undoing the lies and damage that liberals have been creating. BTW all "conservatism" means is moderation, restraint and discipline. It does not mean mainting the status quo, it does not mean only old ideas are good and all new ideas are bad. But when liberals make that strawman, they are indicating that liberalism precisely means all old ideas are bad, only new ideas are good and there is nothing worth preserving. Liberalism inherently means excessiveness. All you have to do is consider the difference between a liberal amount of sugar in your coffee and a conservative amount.

How is that for a dose of truth? Can you handle it?

What Brian here calls "a dose of truth" is actually an opinion. If he could tell the difference between an opinion and a fact maybe we could handle it....

brian,

i don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. i'm a liberal and proud of it. i want you to know why i call myself liberal. i'm an american who is proud of my country with all of its faults which i don't deny, i embrace. we have overcome a lot in our history. we slaughtered the indians. we stole california and texas, arizona and new mexico from mexico. we interred japanese during wwII, taking everything they owned. we enslaved people and treated them like animals. we have treated our women like property. we have driven animals in our country to extinction. but! we have learned from our past. genicide of a people for our personal expansion is no longer acceptable. stealing peoples' land is no longer acceptable. we have slowly but surely moved in the direction of true personal freedom and equality...we have a long way to go there, but we have made significant steps. most of us now understand and truly want to keep the animals we have and are gaining a respect for the world that God gave us. we didn't get here by sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that we have always been this perfect, magnanimous entity that never sinned. remember, we wiped out two cities and hundreds of thousands of people with two atomic bombs. poof! but, because i am a liberal i can understand my country from the perspective of what it was, how people thought seventy years ago, a hundred years ago, two hundred years ago. it's no longer acceptable to beat your wife or your children and respect for each other is now expected. tell me, what is so radical about that? i am a christian who believes in the teachings of Jesus such as, 'love thy neighbor as thyself,' and 'do not judge lest ye be judged.' what is so radical about those sentences? or are you going to pretend that Jesus never said them?

i am reviled at what the board of education in Texas has done. i'm aghast that they would do so much to harm their children and i can only pray that the parents in Texas will take a stand and refuse to allow their children to go to school as long as these text books are there. a boycott of the schools could force the hand of the school board. i don't know the people of Texas. from some of the posts here, i get the feeling that many, many of them are just as upset as the rest of country. i hope the parents in Texas realize that they are a very powerful entity. i pray for the parents to fight for their children. i pray for the children to survive this nightmare.

Hey Allisa, What I find hilarious is that people actually label themselves as liberals. They have no idea the moniker was originally a disparagement. Education has gotten so bad no one even knows the meaning of words anymore. Ever wonder who the natives slaughtered to capture and keep their lands? What about the Mexicans? Hey who hunted the Mammoth to extinction? You are so bamboozled and lied to. Did you know that white people did not start slavery? They ended it at the cost of 600,000 American lives. As far as the natives, know of any other countries that went out of their way to preserve the uncivilized natives who refuse to compromise and give them reservations free of taxation?

Animals have been pushed to extinction all over the world. Often times by other species. Hey guess what? Humans are the only species to care at all about any other species. You go on about beating wives and other absurd irrelevant nonsense as if it has something to do with the teachings of Christ.

You are a priceless example of how utterly incapable self described liberals are of even comprehending the most basic of truths and logic. BTW You have no idea what changes have been made. You have no idea what the actual substance of the debate is about. What is really going on, is the underlying power structure that has enabled and perpetuated the liberal lies and persistent victimhood mentality, is losing power now and you all are frothing at the mouth about it. Maybe Obama was just exactly what this nation needed to wake up.

Here is a scientific FACT for you: Women have 6.5 times less gray matter in their brains than men. Call me a misogynist, but it is a fact. Look it up. My opinion is that that explains why so many women seem to be more prone the emotional thinking inherent in liberalism. I do know what I am talking about, but truth does not matter to liberals, only feelings.

No, liberal was not originally a disparagement! Until reagan era politics started making our politics ever more devisive, liberal was as neutral as conservative. Some would argue the arguement has been going on since Jefferson and Hamilton, and rightly so, but the discourse was much more civil.

Look up liberal. I'd link but i don't know how. It means open of mind. Generous. it used ot be associated with free thinking, in a non negative context.

And what, exactly, is so wrong with emotions, mister mysogynist? They help define us as a species. Without emotions, we would never have evolved. Emoptions are required for proper nurturing and develoopment of social context. As far as the rest of your assertion about women's brains, I refuse to feed the troll.

to brian,

please, brian, don't flatter yourself. i'm smarter than you will ever be. i know the meaning of the words i use. i'm not impressed by your insults, neither am i 'put in my place.' i will say whatever i want, i will do whatever i want. no ultra rightwing radical movement will ever take from me the freedoms that this country has fought to long and hard for. least of all, the likes of you. just for starters, you could at least try to get my name right. i mean, it's right there at the top of my statement. i agree that white men didn't start slavery and we aren't the only people who have driven animals to extinction, so what? that makes it all right? people commit murder every day, brian, so does that make it ok? should we all embrace it and say well, we're no guiltier than anyone else? just because people do a thing, doesn't make it right!

i go on about beating wives and what? other irrelevant nonsense! so, brian when did you stop beating your wife? and it has EVERYTHING to do with what Jesus taught us! what is wrong with you? He taught us to be kind, and tolerant and thoughtful, compassionate, caring and loving, nonjudgmental. how could any person with a conscience say that any of those things is irrelevant? but, then i guess you have to have a conscience in order for it to bother you.

as far as women not being as smart as men....plueeze! what a typical chauvanistic attitude, i never heard! like i said, i could spin rings around you, buddy. that 'fact' is blather spewed by men who are so insecure in their manhood that the only way they feel better is by putting down women. it's we who intimidate you. i'm at least smart enough to recognize that sex has nothing to do with intelligence. there are lost of stupid women out there and lots of stupid men. lots of stupid people. and if you think that you're smarter because you have a johnson, then i feel sorry for you. because, you know, once you've seen one you've seen them all. nothing to be impressed by.

Some people can't read. The words were, "Wouldn't it be easier to burn all the books in Texas." How did that become "burn Texas"????

rightly amused You are confusing the founding fathers, a group of very secular men with the puritan religious pilgrims; there is a 150 year difference and a whole century of Enlightenment between the two groups.

There was a lot of interest for science and even Freemason membership amongst the founding fathers that have nothing to do with the 1956 "In God we trust" motto or any of today's neo-cons Christian Taliban attempts on our society.

The pilgrims didn't create the USA, they colonized parts of North America, the British Empire ran the colonies, the founding fathers fought to create the USA, read real book please.

More often than not, taverns were used as 'meeting houses'.

And the founding fathers were deists; not Christians.

Deism is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme being created the universe, and that this (and religious truth in general) can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without the need for either faith or organized religion

Not to mention they were all very specific in separating church and state. They didn't want history repeating itself...but hey, you guys wouldn't recall what REALLY happened right?

I'm sure all of the bad things were taken out of your history books;

like the Crusades-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

the Inquisition-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

forced conversion of all the native Americans throughout the Americas...

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/new-spain.html

Any of that ringing a bell? Theocracies are bad. If you want one, go live in the Vatican. Just watch your little boys closely.

Take a look at the Treaty of Tripoli: it states it quite clearly.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

But of course, let's also remember the most important clause; the first amendment-

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly said as the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.

The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another. The first approach is called the "separation" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferential" or "accommodation" interpretation. The accommodation interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.

The clause itself was seen as a reaction to the Church of England, established as the official church of England and some of the colonies, during the colonial era.

OR any of these:

Lemon v Kurtzman (1971):

In the absence of precisely stated constitutional prohibitions, we must draw lines with reference to the three main evils against which the Establishment Clause was intended to afford protection: "sponsorship, financial support, and active involvement of the sovereign in religious activity."

Every analysis in this area must begin with consideration of the cumulative criteria developed by the Court over many years. Three such tests may be gleaned from our cases. First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; second, its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion; finally, the statute must not foster "an excessive government entanglement with religion."

Everson v Board (1947):

The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. [ … ] Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.'

Anathema,

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!!!!!!!!

Jay and Rightly amused,

I would encourage you to look up an individual named John Bowne and something called the Flushing Remonstrance. You might find that the information that is presented in high school cirricula is very limited and that before we became the United States of America, there were people who came here to make money. Religious freedom was not something that existed to begin with, but thanks to John Bowne and his fellow townsmen they stood up for our right to our conscience. When we were seeking independence we adopted this idea because it makes the most sense. No two religions are even the same so to think that all the founding fathers were of the same thinking is ludicrious.

As for the constitution and the bill of rights being based on religious priniciples, I have to agree that they took a lot from John Locke, who was extremely pious, but they took it upon themselves to change things at they felt better suited this nation, and THAT is what this nation is about. They (FF) were not so limited in sight as to assume that what they said then would reign true for eternity, hence the fact that it is a "living document".

Lastly, changing the slave trade to any sort of euphamism, is deeply insulting to all the men, women and children who have given their lives due to slavery.

Ignorance and hatred for GOD will always lead you to the wrong end of the argument.

XD Who, in this entire article, said they hated god? I haven't seen a single one. What's wrong, don't like facts?

You can quote Adams all you want, it doesn't change the first amendment or the lemon test. I respect your religion, you should respect mine.

I'm struck by the cherry-picked quotes from the cherry-picked founding father (and his son). Adams was one of the most religious of the founding fathers, but even these quotes from the family of John Adams mention Christian principles only indirectly by reference to the ten commandments. And one of those references is a specific defense of the secular viewpoint that property rights are equal to the "laws of God".

In fact, the views expressed are very secular. We derive our morality and our conscience from our own personal religious views, but as a society we apply that morality and conscience using our collective reason.

These quotes do not describe a nation founded on "Christian principles", and they are actually a repudiation of government based on any fundamentalist religion.

rightly amused- Sorry but you are wrong. Europeans came here so they could practice the religion of their CHOICE without persecution. Hence, FREEDOM OF RELIGION. No where in the Constitution does it state that all must be Christian.

I was born and raised catholic. However, I don't feel I have the RIGHT to shove my religion down any persons throat nor does my belief allow me to change FACTS.

Texas wants to change history, yet they insist on KILLING people with their death penalty and covering up a murder (Cameron Todd Willingham), all the while, claiming to be Christian. I don't think God would approve.

Yes, they do describe a nation founded on Christian principles. And the quotes are cherry picked because there are too many of these types of quote to place in a blog. I know it hurts to admit that we were founded on Christian principles and that our founding fathers highly regarded God, but it is the truth. Also, separation of church and state is not in the constitution. The terminology was used in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Church by Jefferson to assure them that the state would stay out of the church and not the other way around. The terminology was then misconstrued by a supreme court justice in the late 1800's. Even Wikipedia tells us that!

Cathee--Go back to school (anywhere but Texas) and LEARN something about the founding of this nation. You are embarrassing yourself (wikipedia indeed--try a book for gosh sakes).

mathrec, spin all you'd like my liberal friend. Your spinning and sidestepping only proves my point that our foundiing fathers relied on GOD, and on JESUS CHRIST.

Here's a reference to your "secularist" Thomas Jefferson signing an official presidential document with "in the year of our Lord Christ." in the signature block. CHRIST, hmmm, I think this is a very Christian theme...

Also, another "cherry picked" document (there are litterally thousands of them in our national archives) is the President of the United States of America Proclamation for a day of Humiliation, Fasting, and Prayer on December 14, 1860 from James Buchanan (I think this is a government document?? and I think this is from the office of the President of the United States of America (a clearly secular nation??))

For those of you who demand the text:

A Proclamation for a Day of Humiliation, Fasting, & Prayer.

To the People of the United States. A Recommendation.

Numerous appeals have been made to me by pious and patriotic associations and citizens, in view of the present distracted and dangerous condition of our country, to recommend that a day be set apart for Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer throughout the Union.

In compliance with their request and my own sense of duty, I designate Friday, the 4th of January 1861, for this purpose, and recommend that the People assemble on that day, according to their several forms of worship, to keep it as a solemn Fast.

The Union of the States is at the present moment threatened with alarming and immediate danger; panic and distress of a fearful character prevails throughout the land; our laboring population are without employment, and consequently deprived of the mans of earning their bread. Indeed, hope seems to have deserted the minds of men. All classes are in a state of confusion and dismay, and the wisest counsels of our best and purest men are wholly disregarded.

In this the hour of our calamity and peril, to whom shall we resort for relief but to the God of our fathers? His omnipotent arm only can save us from the awful effects of our own crimes and follies -- our own ingratitude and guilt towards our Heavenly Father.

Let us, then, with deep contrition and penitent sorrow, unite in humbling ourselves before the Most High, in confessing our individual and national sins, and in acknowledging the injustice of our punishment. Let us implore Him to remove from our hearts that false pride of opinion which would impel us to persevere in wrong for the sake of consistency, rather than yield a just submission to the unforeseen exigencies by which we are now surrounded. Let us with deep reverence beseech him to restore the friendship and good will which prevailed in former days among the people of the several States; and, above all, to save us from the horrors of civil war and "blood-guiltiness." Let our fervent prayers ascend to His Throne that He would not desert us in this hour of extreme peril, but remember us as he did our fathers in the darkest days of the revolution; and preserve our Constitution and our Union, the work of their hands, for ages yet to come.

An Omnipotent Providence may overrule existing evils for permanent good. He can make the wrath of man to praise Him, and the remainder of wrath he can restrain. -- Let me invoke every individual, in whatever sphere of like he may be placed, to feel a personal responsibility to God and his country for keeping this day holy, and for contributing all in his power to remove our actual and impending calamities.

James Buchanan.

Washington, Dec. 14, 1860.

It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible. - George Washington

Our founding fathers used principles found in the bible in the framing of our constitution. They whole separation of church and state thing was so that government could not interfere in religion, not so that religion could not interfere in government. Our founding fathers thought faith in the God who created the heavens and the earth was important and should not be left out of the building and running of our country.

Matt Fuller

Anathema:

Well stated! and very informative. As Confucius said, "a fool curses the darkness, a wise man lights a candle" thank you for lighting a candle to illuminate reason and logic and hopefully, shame these ignorant "know nothings".

When these good folks mention Christianity, you can sure as hell bet they want nothing to do with my denomination---Catholic. If they want prayer in public schools, I demand it be approved by the Pope! That should tork them off.

How sadly mistaken and wrong can you be to say that this country was not founded on Christian principles. It goes to show the shallowness of "left-think" with the utter disregard for historical truth.

I was raised Catholic as well. They kinda came before the English hence the Spanish names out here in California. Like Sacramento L.A. San jose. Whoa guess Spanish and Portuguese was the first European languages in the new world. Uh oh better get bilingual since they still also speak Spanish here. Even today.

But I am also Native American so the Catholics enslaved and killed my people in the Name of God like all eastern Religions. So I am staying with my Tribal beliefs. So much better. Thank Grandfather Spirit and mother Earth that I can. As for rewriting history to suit the Republican slant.Look whites in power have been dumbing down the American public. As to our true history since day one. It is called getting re elected. and both parties are to blame.

Also, separation of church and state is not in the constitution

Uh....

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly said as the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.

The amendments to the Constitution are just as important, don't you think?

They whole separation of church and state thing was so that government could not interfere in religion, not so that religion could not interfere in government.

Not really. go look up tax exemption laws concerning the church and the government.

It basically states that the church can stay tax exempt as long as they stay out of politics. It's something that goes both ways.

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/churchpolitics.htm

It goes to show the shallowness of "left-think" with the utter disregard for historical truth.

Curse those shallow liberals, always thinking of others and everyone's rights!

They're making us look bad! What is this "constitution" they speak of! I never learned THAT in school! I bet it's nothing more than a leftist lie!

Matt, you are quite deluded. If you think that the FIrst Amendment wasn't put there to keep religion out of government, try reading up on Thomas Jefferson and the writings of the other Founding Fathers. That's EXACTLY why it's in the Constitution. Sorry, but you're not going to learn the truth listening to Rush & Beck or Sarah Paliin.

@LearntheTRUTH

OK. I let the inclusion of quotes by John Quincy Adams slide. He clearly was not a major player in the founding of our nation and the development of our Constitution, but he was of the era. James Buchanan? The Constitution was ratified before he was born.

Have we had religious people in high office in this country? Absolutely. Were some of the founders of our nation religious people? Absolutely. What about the key men (and they were male) who gave shape to the United States government and framed and wrote the Constitution? Were they Christian? Well...sort of.

I looked for a list of key founding fathers and this seemed to be a fairly authoritative list (attributable to historian Richard B. Morris): Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton. It was the same as my mental list, except for John Jay and George Washington. I haven't previously checked to see what their religious views were, although I do know something about a couple on the list. I'll do it systematically for the first time right here. I'll use Wikipedia as my source--that's cheating a little, but it should give a good picture:

Benjamin Franklin: Franklin was a non-dogmatic believer, who felt that organized religion was necessary to keep men good to their fellow men, but rarely attended church himself. His faith in God was an important factor in his support for the American Revolution. Franklin rejected much of his Puritan upbringing: belief in salvation, hell, Jesus Christ’s divinity, and indeed most religious dogma. Franklin as a young man adopted the Enlightenment religious belief in Deism, that God’s truths can be found entirely through nature and reason.

George Washington: Washington frequently accompanied his wife to Christian church services; however, there is no record of his ever taking communion, and he would regularly leave services before communion—with the other non-communicants (as was the custom of the day), until, after being admonished by a rector, he ceased attending at all on communion Sundays. Before communion, believers are admonished to take stock of their spiritual lives and not to participate in the ceremony unless he finds himself in the will of God. Historians and biographers continue to debate the degree to which he can be counted as a Christian, and the degree to which he was a deist.

John Adams: Adams was raised a Congregationalist, becoming a Unitarian at a time when most of the Congregational churches around Boston were turning to Unitarianism. "The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion." Adams rejected orthodox Christian doctrines of the trinity, predestination, yet equated human understanding and the human conscience to “celestial communication” or personal revelation from God.

Thomas Jefferson: He is most closely connected with the religious philosophy of Deism, and Unitarianism. He is reported to have said, "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.

John Jay: Jay was Anglican, a denomination renamed the Protestant Episcopal Church in America after the American Revolution. He argued unsuccessfully in the provincial convention for a prohibition against Catholics holding office. "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest, of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

James Madison: Religion unknown. He attained prominence in Virginia politics, helping to draft the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. It disestablished the Church of England, and disclaimed any power of state compulsion in religious matters. He produced an essay against the appointment of chaplains for Congress and the armed forces, because this produced religious exclusion, but not political harmony.

Alexander Hamilton: In his early life, he was an orthodox and conventional, though not deeply pious, Presbyterian. From 1777 to 1792, Hamilton appears to have been completely indifferent, and made jokes about God at the Constitutional Convention.

I'd have lots of common ground with all but John Jay. But I'm a Progressive Christian, and the folks who are driving the Texas revisionist history would disavow me as Christian at all. So, those are the founders of our nation. Claim them as Christian if you will. It's pretty clear to me that their religious views foreswore any intent to found the US as a "Christian nation".

Finished my post, Anathema, but forgot to say that your research was dope.

The problem is that only educated elite (us) can read documents with so many words. That is the problem wit dem der fokes dat no fer sher dat no munki is der grategratepapaw. They have faith that if Fatso Limpballs, Simple Sarah or any other Faux News idiot says it's true, then it must be.

And that's why they still love Texas' a$$hole ex-POTUS. The uneducated love politicians that are as stupid as they are.

Quote from John Adams (from above):

The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.

Learnerofthetruth: This comment uses the word "virtue." Is virtue only a Christian value? Do Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus not have virtue? I think you show your bias by attaching this value to one religion over another. I don't believe John Adams specified where virtue is found. I know many "Christians" who have no virtue. Virtue is a value of the heart and soul. It is more than talk or public actions. I know many good Christians, but I also know several good Jews, Buddhists, and Hindis. Do they fit your stereotype of someone with virtue?

Funny what that says about our election process and our current choice of leaders by popular vote if the educated are an elite group. I love the posts above that quote Wikipedia. They're obviously well educated enough to cite such a scholarly resource.

Does anyone oppose the belief of Americans being founded on moral qualities or principles?

Funny what that says about our election process and our current choice of leaders by popular vote if the educated are an elite group. I love the posts above that quote Wikipedia. They're obviously well educated enough to cite such a scholarly resource.

You are free to double-check the facts if you want. Wiki is a reliable source of information if you are sure to cross-reference, which I did. Can you tell me which part of it is inaccurate? You think the Inquisition was made up? Or perhaps you don't agree with the "false" accusation of the crusades?

Did you even bother to cross-reference, or are you going to continue to disregard information just because you don't like what it says?

All of that information was NOT from wikipedia, but can be found in our very own constitution and various other sources.

It's you who obviously is not educated enough to know the difference between bunk info and the accurate info.

"Jay, this country was not founded on Christian principles. Quit rewriting history to suit your own personal values/beliefs/delusions."

Nuts. You have just proven how badly needed this change in the cirriculum is. Of course this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values. Theism is the basis for all of our founding documents, like the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE and THE CONSTITUTION. Theism is a Judeo-Christian value. You know like how our inherent rights are endowed by our CREATOR and our national motto being IN GOD WE TRUST!! For God's sake! Most of the founding fathers were Christian after all, several were Christian leaning Deists.

But thank you for illustating just how incompetent and incomplete your education is. The more proof you liberal moon-bats provide that our education system is totally biased and just plain dishonest and that this change is desperately needed, the better.

Brian you deserve an EPIC FAIL.

The founding fathers were deists; not Christians.

Deism is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme being created the universe, and that this (and religious truth in general) can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without the need for either faith or organized religion

Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Some people speculate that if Charles Darwin had lived a century earlier, the Founding Fathers would have had a basis for accepting naturalistic origins of life, and they would have been atheists. Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular.

Take a look at the Treaty of Tripoli: it states it quite clearly.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Theism is a Judeo-Christian value.

LOLOLOL- no, it's not. In fact, it's not even a "value," as you so eloquently put it.

Theism in the broadest sense is the belief that at least one deity exists. There are hundreds of religions that believe in at least one god.

You know like how our inherent rights are endowed by our CREATOR

a creator, not naming the christian god specifically. They could be talking about Zeus for all we know. (In actuality, they were talking about the god of nature, or nature's god, not the christian god)

and our national motto being IN GOD WE TRUST!!

Wasn't added until later, mostly in reaction to the red scare.

http://symonsez.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/in-god-we-trust-unconstitutional-unjust-court-martial-of-uss-indianapolis-skipper/

Just because it's there doesn't mean it doesn't violate the constitution. Thank the conservatives for that illegal activity.

Christian leaning Deists.

lol- that just made me laugh.

I like how you twist around history and definitions of words to fit your argument. I find it hilarious at how you think we're "incompetent" because we know our history.

You have no argument; everything in your post was debunked.

Care to debate further on my "incomplete" education?

Considering this liberal just tore your argument to pieces, I would consider an apology an adequate response from you.

Of course I do Anathema (indicative name BTW). You have no concept of reality and so when one is presented to you, you reject it out of reflex. Epic fail for sure.

Maybe you should get your facts straight. Maybe a better education would help you. SOME of our founding fathers were deists. MOST were Christians and even many of the Deists were Christian leaning, or at least sympathetic with them. All it would take to learn the truth here is to actually read some of the letters and speeches and other documents written by these people. Maybe a minimally competent education.

Nothing about our nations motto violates anything in the Constitution. If you want to use the precedent of the seperation of church and state, then you are wrong on two counts. That is not in the Constitution, and secondly it was in a SCOTUS opinion written with the expressed intent to argue that the STATE/FED had no right or authority to interfere in the matters of CHURCH. Liberals, like everything, have spun the truth 180 degrees. But once again, even the most barely competent education would have enlightend you to these FACTS.

Regardless of when the motto was put in place, God was the central principle from our founding. It first appeared on US currency in the 1850's. The reason our nation made it more prominent during the "Red scare" is because in communist Russia, people were persecuted, jailed and executed for expressing any theistic beliefs, and it was clear that such oppression was the root of why communism fails. With out an authority higher than the state, peoples rights have no outside guiding principle other than what the state decides. I do not expect you to understand that. It requires logic and reasoning skills. All you have is cynicism and vain intransigence.

I find it interesting that Anathema used several quotes and references supporting the argument, but all Brian Comstock had was assertions. So I ask: Brian, exactly where in the Constitution is "Theism" mentioned? (cue crickets)
Oh, the Declaration of Independence does have that "endowed by their Creator" phrase, but that could apply to any generic deity, even Mother Nature, that old biological creatin' that our parents indulged in.
The only religious mention in the Constitution is "No religious test shall be required for any public office", and the First Amendment phrase "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof".
Now, granted, some of the Founding Fathers were indeed Christians, but they took great care to preserve religious liberty by keeping Church and State separate. Unlike some today, they knew that to combine Church and State results in corruption of both Church and State and loss of freedoms.
As for "In God We Trust", the phrase itself isn't unconstitutional, anyone could, if they wished, put that phrase over their door or on their checkbook. What isn't constitutional was making a law requiring that expressly religious phrase be put on our currency, thus respecting certain monotheistic religions over all others.

I find it interesting that Anathema used several quotes and references supporting the argument, but all Brian Comstock had was assertions. So I ask: Brian, exactly where in the Constitution is "Theism" mentioned? (cue crickets)

Oh, the Declaration of Independence does have that "endowed by their Creator" phrase, but that could apply to any generic deity, or even Mother Nature, that old biological creatin' that our parents indulged in.

The only religious mention in the Constitution is "No religious test shall be required for any public office", and the First Amendment phrase "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof".

Now, granted, some of the Founding Fathers were indeed Christians, but they took great care to preserve religious liberty by keeping Church and State separate. Unlike some today, they knew that to combine Church and State results in corruption of both Church and State and loss of freedoms.

As for "In God We Trust", the phrase itself isn't unconstitutional, anyone could, if they wished, put that phrase over their door or on their checkbook. What isn't constitutional was Congress making a law requiring that expressly religious phrase be put on our currency, thus respecting certain monotheistic religions over all others.

Brian, brian- such a nice way of deflecting and reiterating your original post.

Try not to pretend you have the high ground with your rhetoric, because your vanity is showing.

SOME of our founding fathers were deists. MOST were Christians and even many of the Deists were Christian leaning, or at least sympathetic with them.

No, as I stated earlier, most of them were deist, and deism specifically states they were very different from christian belief.

Regardless of how they felt about religion, however, they knew full well the issues that would arise if religion and government ever attempted to join. As state above in the treaty of Tripoli and the first amendment.

They were VERY clear that any religion cannot be supported by the religion; we are a SECULAR nation. This means that anyone and everyone is free to practice whichever religion you choose, including you, brian- and the government can't tell you that your religion might be wrong.

All it would take to learn the truth here is to actually read some of the letters and speeches and other documents written by these people. Maybe a minimally competent education.

Maybe you should take your own advice. I've already given several examples of my research. You, however, have not.

Nothing about our nations motto violates anything in the Constitution. If you want to use the precedent of the seperation of church and state, then you are wrong on two counts. That is not in the Constitution, and secondly it was in a SCOTUS opinion written with the expressed intent to argue that the STATE/FED had no right or authority to interfere in the matters of CHURCH.

lol-so you're suggesting that the separation of church and state are not in the constitution? Well, hate to break it to ya, but the first amendment of the constitution begs to differ. Scroll up a bit, I have it up there too.

And as for your second opinion, like I said, just because a president says it's okay, doesn't mean it's legal/ constitutional- especially since there is nobody opposing his view. Sadly, the majority of the nation didn't mind this violation- why? History speaks for itself...won't go into that. (kinda like going to war with a nation for an isolated act of terrorism...)

But I believe your argument is government doesn't provide protection from religion: and this is where you're wrong. This is illuminated not only by the first amendment, the lemon test, which I have in post 3.4, kurtzman, also in 3.4, but also in tax laws.

Most people are aware that a church or religious organization can lose its tax exempt status for engaging in partisan political activity, like endorsing a political candidate. What many aren’t aware of, though, is that the same can happen for engaging in behavior contrary to government policy. Tax exemption is a privilege, not a right.

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/Tax_Exempt_Churches_Religious_Freedom_vs_Tax_Exemptions.htm

It's a double-edged sword; a church cannot be taxed by the government, as it inhibits religion; but in turn, the church cannot impede on the way the government is run. Once they do violate that agreement, they not only violate the constitutional rights of the citizens but they also lose their tax-exempt status.

Regardless of when the motto was put in place, God was the central principle from our founding

You're disregarding important facts, brian. Of course it's relevant! It's the whole point of the argument simply because the founding fathers had nothing to do with the motto. They were long dead- and their statements in several articles and documents have proven that they would be against stamping in god we trust on our money. Why? Because it supports and promotes religion on money, created by the government. BLATANT violation of the first amendment. The government cannot support any or all religions. They MUST remain secular.

and it was clear that such oppression was the root of why communism fails.

Irrelevant, as I do not support communism.

With out an authority higher than the state, peoples rights have no outside guiding principle other than what the state decides.

-_- So you're suggesting that people can't really think for themselves unless they're told how to act by an invisible man in the sky? Hmm.

Tell me, what do you support again? Brainwashing by bible? Sorry, that ain't how religion is supposed to work, dude.

I do not expect you to understand that. It requires logic and reasoning skills.

You're right; I don't understand your ass backwards logic. If you think that you can't make up your own goddamn mind about anything, you don't deserve the freedom our country has granted you.

You only know what the religious zealots have pounded into your head; that Jesus is the only way you'll be saved, and if you don't believe, you will be burning eternally.

Fear is a terrible thing to give in to, seriously. It's called manipulation of the masses.

All you have is cynicism and vain intransigence.

I'm not cynical at all; I'm logical in my assessments. And no, I do not give in to falsehoods and allow ignorance to take over. If what you say is not correct, you have to expect people to correct you.

It's not bad to be wrong; but it is bad to be willfully ignorant.

And before you say it, I don't hate religion- I hate hypocrites and liars.

Of course I do Anathema (indicative name BTW)

Oh, and that's damned funny; I wasn't aware that you owned a dictionary.

Good for you!

Would you like to know how I've earned that name?

My views on subjects such as this have separated me from my family and friends, as they were all extremely religious.

They wanted nothing to do with someone who did not believe in god, who thought for themselves, questioned everything....and so, they abused me, cursed me, beat me and finally disowned me when they couldn't change my mind- barring me from seeing my own brothers. You see, they found it frightening to think any further than what they already "know."They couldn't fathom the thought that maybe everything they knew was a LIE.

What was most amusing is that I had no problem with interacting with them; I rarely talked of my beliefs unless someone asked...but they just couldn't tolerate being in the same house as I was, knowing I believed what I did. They would constantly alienate and segregate me in conversations, just to be hateful.

Fighting for justice and equality is often a lonely road, but it's something that must be done, no matter what the cost.

All my life I've suffered intolerance; and I'll fight to my last breath to keep others from suffering from what I have.

Anathema, Denise (3.10), romolio (3.2), et al:

I hate long posts, but you all seem to need this information:

Of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, (presumably you consider them to be the Founding Fathers) their religions are:

Charles Carroll, Catholic; Samuel Huntington, Congregationalist; Roger Sherman, Congregationalist; William Williams, Congregationalist; Oliver Wolcott, Congregationalist; Lyman Hall, Congregationalist; Samuel Adams, Congregationalist; John Hancock, Congregationalist; Josiah Bartlett, Congregationalist; William Whipple, Congregationalist; William Ellery, Congregationalist; John Adams, Congregationalist; Unitarian; Robert Treat Paine, Congregationalist; Unitarian; George Walton, Episcopalian; John Penn, Episcopalian; George Ross, Episcopalian; Thomas Heyward Jr. , Episcopalian; Thomas Lynch Jr., Episcopalian; Arthur Middleton, Episcopalian; Edward Rutledge, Episcopalian; Francis Lightfoot Lee, Episcopalian; Richard Henry Lee, Episcopalian; George Read, Episcopalia; Caesar Rodney, Episcopalian; Samuel Chase, Episcopalian; William Paca, Episcopalian; Thomas Stone, Episcopalian; Elbridge Gerry, Episcopalian; Francis Hopkinson, Episcopalian; Francis Lewis, Episcopalian; Lewis Morris, Episcopalian; William Hooper, Episcopalian; Robert Morris, Episcopalian; John Morton, Episcopalian; Stephen Hopkins, Episcopalian; Carter Braxton, Episcopalian; Benjamin Harrison, Episcopalian; Thomas Nelson Jr. , Episcopalian; George Wythe, Episcopalian; Thomas Jefferson, Episcopalian (Deist); Benjamin Franklin, Episcopalian (Deist); Button Gwinnett, Episcopalian; Congregationalist; James Wilson, Episcopalian; Presbyterian; Joseph Hewes, Quaker, Episcopalian; George Clymer, Quaker, Episcopalian; Thomas McKean, Presbyterian; Matthew Thornton, Presbyterian; Abraham Clark, Presbyterian; John Hart, Presbyterian; Richard Stockton, Presbyterian; John Witherspoon, Presbyterian; William Floyd, Presbyterian; Philip Livingston, Presbyterian; James Smith, Presbyterian; George Taylor, Presbyterian; Benjamin Rush, Presbyterian

Also, the following are passages from state constitutions. Notice anything common in each? I mean the name of the state (think 13 founding colonies), and the date, 1776ish, (you know, the founding of the country). Most, if not all of these state constitutions have changed over time, so if you cross check, (they are online) make sure you get the version by the date listed. Those are the original FOUNDING state constitutions.

Delaware; Article 22 (1776) "Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust...shall...also make and subscribe the following declaration, to whit:

'I,_____, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration'"

Georgia; Article VI (1777) "The representatives shall be chosen out of the residents in each county...and they shall be of the Protestant religion..."

Maryland; Article XXXII (1776) "...All persons, professing the Christian religion, are equally entitled to protection their religious liberty...the Legislature may, in their discretion, lay a general tax and equal tax, for the support of the Christian religion."

Maryland; Article XXXV (1776) "That no other test or qualification ought to be required...than such oath of support and fidelity to this State...and a declaration of a belief in the Christian religion."

Massachusetts; First Part, Article II (1780) "The governor shall be chosen annually; and no person shall be eligible to this office, unless...he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion."

Massachusetts; Chapter VI, Article I (1780) "[All persons elected to State office or to the Legislature must] make and subscribe the following declaration, viz.

'I,_____, do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have firm persuasion of its truth...'"

New Hampshire; Part 1, Article 1, Section 5 (1784) "...the legislature ...authorize ...the several towns ...to make adequate provision at their own expense, for the support and maintenance of public protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality..."

New Hampshire; Part 2, (1784) "[Provides that no person be elected governor, senator, representative or member of the Council] who is not of the protestant religion."

New Jersey; Article XIX (1776) "...no Protestant inhabitant of this Colony shall be denied the enjoyment of any civil right...; all persons, professing a belief in the faith of any Protestant sect...shall be capable of being elected into any office of profit or trust, or being a member of either branch of the Legislature."

North Carolina; Article XXXII (1776) "That no person, who shall deny the being of God or the truth of the Protestant religion, or the divine authority either of the Old or New Testaments,...shall be capable of holding any office or place of trust or profit in the civil department within this State.

Pennsylvania; Frame of Government, Section 10 (1776) "And each member [of the legislature]...shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz.:

'I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder to the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration.'"

South Carolina; Article III (1778) "[State officers and privy council to be] all of the Protestant religion."

South Carolina; Article XII (1778) "...no person shall be eligible to a seat in the said senate unless he be of the Protestant religion."

South Carolina; Article XXXVIII (1778) "That all persons and religious societies who acknowledge that there is one God, and a future state of rewards and punishments, and that God is publicly to be worshipped, shall be freely tolerated. The Christian Protestant religion shall be deemed...to be the established religion of this State."

Vermont; Declaration of Rights, III (1777) "...nor can any man who professes the protestant religion, be justly deprived or abridged of any civil right, as a citizen, on account of his religious sentiment...; nevertheless, every sect or denomination of people ought to observe the Sabbath, or the Lord's day..."

Vermont; Frame of Government, Section 9 (1777) "And each member [of the legislature],...shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz.:

I do believe in one god, the Creator and Governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the scriptures of the old and new testament to be given by divine inspiration, and own and profess the Protestant religion.'

THAT SOUNDS LIKE A NATION BUILT ON CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES!

What the TX school board is emulating is not the freedoms guaranteed in our Constitution, but the mind-set of Iran and the other Islamic nations. That's why we have separation of church and state. TX has no right to inflict their reactionary, conservative ideas on their children or any citizen (child) in the United States.

This appears as the last gasp of white supremacy.

Soon the immmagrats that came to the US over the last 75years have been non white will become the new majority in US. Just as the immigration of the 19th century were white Europeans later reinforced the white christian majority.

Claiming the high ground of patriotism for the changes is merely a last grasp at control. It will not work.

Please don't blame all of Tx and not even all of the Tx Sch Board. The members are elected locally and well, just like any other state, people didn't pay as much attention to the local elections as they should have and it's come back around to bite us. And it's only because McLeroy wasn't re-elected that this is even noticed. If he wasn't, he'd be pushing the changes through a few at a time and no one would notice. I just hope the other eight members show even a little bit of sense and defeat this.

Actually, you're a facist. How do I know? I can tell by your use of the terminology "white christian supremacy". Only facists use that type of terminology to describe and generalize Christian principle. Go live in Russia or Germany or perhaps you would have thrived under Hitler.

Cathee, you don't KNOW anything. The words "white christian supremacy" were in reference to those on the Texas board of education, not Christians in general. I don't know why you think slavery denial is any less fascist than Holocaust denial, but it seems you might be happier in Iran than in the United States. And by the way, Hitler has been dead for a very long time and Nazi Germany along with him. Germany is actually a democratic country now. You make the perfect example of why extreme right (or left for that matter) should not have anything to do with decisions regarding education.

Well, cathee-771529, I'm just not going to let that pass... An obvious ad hominem, attack, rather than a rational address of my comments. As Wikipedia has it: "...an attempt to persuade which links the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise."

You are also apparently ill-informed as to what "Fascism" is and/or what fascists belive, endorse or support.

I was very specific and deliberate in my choice of words when I called the members of the Texas School Board "fascists."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

As for "Christian principle[s]" if by this You mean the Sermon on the Mount, I'm in almost complete agreement with them, so you're mistaken there, too. If, on the other hand, you mean by "Christian principle" that a conservative-dominated political entity in Texas can and should rewrite textbooks to call the Slave Trade the "Atlantic Triangle Trade," minimize the role in our nation's founding of the principal author of the Declaration of Independence and our third president, and explicitly endorsing the National Rifle Association I'm frankly baffled as to how ANY of that has to do with promoting or otherwise being in agreement with the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

Oh, and by the way, Hitler's Nazis were big on "editing" history books, in point of fact, and/or burning them when they'd already been printed.

Try reading some real history

As for me, I was born in the USA, served in the military here, and love this land, and thankfully you and your misinformed beliefs have nothing to do with my right to live here.

Have a better day...

And FYI, I live in Texas

I live in Texas also and have kids that attend public schools, I also have a good job that i'm proud to have, and a member of the NRA, I do believe in God, and will get involved in education where I feel the need. I stopped by here just killing time but I don't know if I just don't get it, but all of you have WAY TO MUCH TIME to kill. Plain and simple the school board was put together for a reason if you don't like what is being implemented GO VOTE, if you don't want to do that move to somewhere that don't allow voting, but at some point lets all just calm down and try to get along.

I vote in every major election, and treasure the right to - that's a "Right" as in guaranteed by the Constitution of these United States.

Participation in this forum on this issue is well within the proud tradition of public discussion and debate engaged in here in the US since before we were other than a British colony; indeed such discussions are a big part of how the Revolution happened.

.45acp, your comment is absurd. I vote. I served in the US military. I participate in this society. I have no desire to "move to somewhere that don't allow voting," as you so eloquently put it.

Rewriting textbooks to distort History in service of a political agenda - as in minimizing the role of one of the principal Founders and/or renaming the slave trade to something specifically written to minimize the horror and moral failing it represented is simply wrong.

I have a ten-year-old daughter who's about to finish the year near the top of her class in a Texas public school. I thank God (also my right), though, that she already knows more History than these right wing fascists on the School Board ever want to allow her to learn!

Sean Kirk, well stated. Most conscientious parents use public school as a supplement to their children's education. We know that now and then a child will come home and tell a parent about something they've learned in school and the parent will think, "What the hell?" mind you, not verbalize this and help the child look up the correct information to the subject they were given not so true information. If a parent wants religious history they can teach all they like but rewriting history with a Christian/Biblical bent sounds wrong in all manner. I've asked this before what one of the many denominations will rule the "truth"?

The standards will refer to the U.S. government as a "constitutional republic," rather than "democratic,"

Isn't that a fact or what is wrong with that?

I read online this week:

Schools are dropping the Holocaust from history lessons to avoid offending Muslim pupils

History teaches us how to learn from our mistakes. The Holocaust is part of history. I'm not sure which is worse, not teaching history or teaching only what you want to hear.

Thank you very much to all those who provided quotes from our FF. Two of my personal family founders signed the Declaration of Independence. Both were Quakers. My family felt so intensely about forming a free society that they fought in the Revolutionary War, as well, despite being Quakers (Quakers denounce war). I can tell you from personal family history that my forbears were horrifed at the idea of the church being able to control the people or the government. They too believed in the prevailing ideas of Reason and Enlightenment. Religion in America, circa 1776 was considered a very private affair, between a person and god, in many respects, though the usage of god's name and epithets of prayer were common language parlances and social customs. (waves history degree in air) Even those who were regular church goers believed in personal freedoms, and in keeping religion and government separate.

I find the greatest tragedy of this affair with the Texas School Board (and wouldn't it be nice if people who ran for school boards had to prove they had some education credentials to put their names on the ballot??) is not only what Texas children will be taught, or not taught, but the fact that almost all other states use the textbooks written by the State of Texas. Yes, that's right, the flap is: it's not just kids in TX, its YOUR kids that are going to be subject to this as well. The reason is that Texas orders such a large volume of books, that it is not profitable enough for the text book companies to print more than one version of a textbook. Once Texas approves a book, it will be in about 90% of all other public school districts. Lazy profiteering wins once again.

to allea: actually, the part about us being a republic is factually true. We do not directly elect all our leaders by a simple vote of the people, we have an electorate system in place for presidential elections. This makes us a Republic rather than a true democracy, though our system is indeed founded on democratic ideals, and is very close to a true democracy. But it is not quite completely there.

The only reasons there are any non-whites in America other thant he Indians (called savages for their largely horrific and brutal nature-- by most of the early settlers): (1) They were brought here as slaves; (2) The white people of America mistakenly let the Trojan horse (especially Muslims--thank you Lyndon Johson) into our once quite homogenous and cultured nation with much less crime and much more unity.

Americans by nature (because of their Christian heritage)instinctively want to be kind and inclusive and let all the "huddled masses (originally meant to be from the "old country" ie Europe) in and look what it has cost us.

We have no borders on the South. We have Muslims building a huge Mosque (a horror it was permitted) near where their brothers attacked this great nation on 9/11 while the Imam is a radical Islamic Hate Monger. We have blacks (never owned as slaves) thinking they should be paid reparations--hooey!

Enough is enough. Either melt into the melting pot that has been America in the past or expect the hatred of White America with all that may mean for your future. White Americans are still the majority. Their kindness and desire for accepting everyone (even a mullato President) have and are costing this country dearly.

Do not push too hard--the sleeping white revolution (hopefully peaceful and at the ballot box) is roiling just beneath the surface. One is a fool to poke a rabid pit bull in the eye. Beware of doing so to White America!

Yes American history features White Men because America was built into the greatest nation in the history of the world by Euro-American men. Slavery was minimal here compared with what it was (and still is today) in the Moslem world but who is calling the Muslim world to task over their continuing and horrific slave trade?
It was tribal cheiftans who sold their own members or Moslem Raiders that handed over the slaves to the slavers to take a few to Europe and America. South America and the Carribean had far far far morse slaves than the American Colonies or Southern States, but we stick with a collective Angst in spite of the fact that we ended slavery here.

That IS History! Women were there but they played a subservient and lesser role--That IS History! White indentured servants were treate as badly or in come cases worse than African slaves--That IS History! Like it or not History was not PC by our standards of today. George Washington owned Slaves--but was a great and brilliant man who built a nation without a King and who incidentally, gave his slaves Freedom in his will. Now that IS History!

Some of the founders had warts on their noses but a real history book should neither white wash nor should it vilify those who came before us. They had a different set of values and mores--and yes, That IS History!

juno-932501 your views are repellant racist nonsense, and, beyond this characterization, are simply too absurd to warrant a reply.

Have a better life...

Generally speaking, the other side to that is schools do not teach how great America was and how other countries sent people here to study us because they wanted to be as prosperous as America.

There were prayers at the Constitutional Convention and still in our public bodies in DC. The only separation of church and state that was written against and detested by the founders was the European idea of establishing one Church for the nation which: (1) Was supported by taxes from all the people; (2) Made it so that dissenters could be imprisioned and killed.

That is the kind of tyranny the founders wished to avoid. They invoke the Creator and name God in many of the founding documents and letters--just wanted everyone to have "freedom of conscience" regarding their form of worship. That is the truth! How do I know? Taught History and read those founding documents. Many here would do well to read from the "original" documents before you pick out one line that you impune means Jefferson believed this or Washington believed that.

That is what Texas and other schools should do--use the original documents rather than PCing up what they have created as history. Face it, women were lesser in those days. Betsy Ross doesn't deserve the whole page she has in the US History book at our school just to give a woman equal pagage with Washington.

Do you think we would have separated politics and religion with a Wiccan or Muslim president?

Jay-if they respect the constitution, then yes.

It doesn't matter what religion they are; they should lead this country unbiased; this is a SECULAR nation.

It seems you don't get this. And what's wrong with Wiccans?

Or Muslims?

If they're not Christian, that makes them immoral, is that what you're suggesting?

That would make them oppressive and tyrannical?

Because I see it as quite the opposite, really.

Let's not forget about the Crusades. Or the Inquisition.

Or the forced conversion of native Americans.

Hmm?

People seem to forget the reasons for separation of church and state

To give us freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Something the court system doesn't seem to understand these days --- you know the supreme court -- the one that meets in the building with a carving of Moses and 10 commandments on it... :-)

Sorry southern,

But its to give if BOTH freedom OF and freedom FROM religion!

Southernyankee;

See #3.4

And just because that happened, doesn't make it legal.

Our founding fathers are probably rolling in their graves when things like that happen.

Conservatives have been in power for quite awhile, and have gotten away with too much. This is where we all put our foot down now and say NO TO YOU.

Actually, all the Christian presidents haven't helped the "destiny" of mankind so far.

You know, the part where global warming has been denied for the past few generations?

The part where mankind has refused to be the caretakers of planet, and instead sought to completely tear it to shreds?

Mhmm, real caretakers there.

I say we let someone else take the stand if you guys are completely incompetent.

Seriously, your comment was such an epic fail.

Not bigoted at all, huh? (end sarc)

Freedom OF Religion can also be Freedom FROM Religion for an atheist. It's ironic that the 'least religious' of people seem to live their lives with the most respect for secular laws, diversity, and tolerance.

And yes, statistics bear this out. Thankfully, my children have received a very good education, despite some of the idiots that attempted to imprint their views and religion on them. It's laughable that people feel they need to homeschool their children to 'save them from liberal education'. What they're really doing is preventing their children from getting a balanced view of the world, teaching them to think for themselves, and allowing them to live their lives.

Your beliefs can't really stand by themselves if you're so threatened by exposure to other points of view. So rock on, you'll never stamp out free-thinking regardless of how hard you try.

And finally, what Texas is going to do with this heavy handed attempt to rewrite history is cause a backlash. LOL! Go look at what happened when Kansas tried to rewrite Science standards to incorporate Intelligent Design aka the Fundie's repackaging of Creationism to masquerade as Science. Common sense in the form of an active and voting public got rid of those moronic fascists and returned state standards for science TO science.

go vote

Jay, are you seriously implying that Wiccans oppose separation of church and state?

You might want to look up a thing or two about Wicca before running your mouth - it's hard enough to get most Wiccans to ACKNOWLEDGE the state, let alone combine it with the church that they don't have.

In the same context of history that started this thread, the FF were pursuing religious liberty, wanted to start Christian Bible Societies, wanted to choose their religion and King George III vetoed their bible societies, religious liberties and demanded an established church. Consequently the FF like Charles Carroll of Carrollton and Samuel Adams who became Signers of the Declaration and religious freedom was the reason they joined the revolution.

Sean--No I don't believe the Christian majority in America wants the government we currently have (Obamuslim) to take over the country and force his religion on the rest of us. No one is asking to have only Presbyterians, Baptists, Catholics or Mormons force their version of belief on anyone else, but at the same time, there was more peace in our schools and more civility in our social discourse when the country was able to coalesce around the basic and common tenets of all of the Christian Relitions listed above.

Now when I ask my PTA board what they think about having values taught they seriously ask--"What values." What values--all the nations of the earth have come up with some values that are nearly universal--unless subverted. Look at the murders in schools--even thou shalt not kill apparently is no longer a commonly held value. We were a better nation when we held common beliefs and shared them in the public forum--not to deny religious freedom, but to reinforce the 1st Freedom mentioned in the Bill of Rights--Freedom of Religion.

To remove Religion from history is to leave it without proper context. I could not have taught my Highschool World History Classes in any meaningful way without the part the Catholic Church played in the Medieval European scene any more than without the Protestant revolutions etc. No more can you teach American History without the Religions that made it what it is today.

-No I don't believe the Christian majority in America wants the government we currently have (Obamuslim) to take over the country and force his religion on the rest of us.

Wtf does that even mean?!

He's christian, dude.

You're one of those birthers, aren't you?

Ya know, I'm glad Hawaii gave you guys the bitch slap that it did, and told you guys to piss off already about asking for a birth certificate.

You guys seriously need to get a life. And a clue.

I could not have taught my Highschool World History Classes in any meaningful way without the part the Catholic Church played in the Medieval European scene any more than without the Protestant revolutions etc.

lol-so true; without all that bloodshed and ignorance and bigotry, we wouldn't have had anything interesting to talk about, now would we?

The crusades, the inquisition, the forced conversion of natives, the burning of witches, slavery....

Yeah, religion has contributed so much.

To give us freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

God I'm so tired of this bull@!$%#. This is the lie the religious right came up with in the 90s (I believe) after others failed. I fear this will be with us for decades as so many truly seem to want a theocracy without ever truly realising what that means.

How can one have freedom of (a particular) religion without freedom from all other religions?

Are not Christians free from Hindus and vice-versa?

stop gop lies

go vote

Why is the divorce rate highest in the Bible Belt? Hypocracy. Whenever I see a man stand up and moralize to the rest of us, I think "So what is your deal buddy? Young boys? Meth & gay male prostitutes? Adultry?" Because they have proven over and over that they are the most perverted among us.

I saw that as well. Super funny. No don't tell the kids to use protection just abstain. Oops I cant abstain either dammit. Cheater telling kids to not have sex. What the USA needs now is to catch one of these jerks telling the mistress to have an abortion. LOL

Actually when abstainance was the gold standard when I was in school there were only a couple of kids who "had to get married." The rest of the large school--believe it or not--had lots of fun parties with both sexes and, yes we all waited for marriage. What a concept. It works when the society expects it to work. Expectations. Interesting when we think our kids are incapable of self control and think they are just trashy our expectations are certainly being fulfilled.

juno

It works when the society expects it to work. Expectations. Interesting when we think our kids are incapable of self control and think they are just trashy our expectations are certainly being fulfilled.

WOW...how can you argue with that?

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." - Mother Teresa

1devon,

Not all Texans are so closed minded. Some of us are actually capable of thinking for ourselves. Obviously, those in question are not part of that group.

i understand that you and probably most Texans are not in line with this radical view. i hope you can influence the board of education not to open this pandora's box. it would be so damaging to your children, to their future and to christianity in general. most christians are NOT radical and would choose to live by the ideals of freedom of religion. i guess this is a good lesson to everyone, though. we really need to pay attention to who we elect to public office, don't we? not just is Texas but everywhere. i'm in California and there are some realy whackos trying to get into office. this just brings it home to me how important it is that i not only vote, but really learn all i can about the candidates and do what i can to make sure we have the best people advocating for us. good luck, and...i will pray for you.

I am from Cali as well and all I see is two Republicans shooting for governor in the TV ads. where is the Dem at.

Poizner and Meg not much to choose from. At least Meg ran Ebay right. Poizner is just a nut.

i'm not sure where jerry brown is. maybe he's waiting for the other two the devour each other. whitman is a past ceo of huge corporation and while she made an incidious amount of money, the people she worked for didn't. i don't think i would trust her, because we are just the 'little people' and also, when she attacked the unions, she basically insulted every hard-working union member in the state(of which i am a proud member). that tells me, she has a managment point of view and that doesn't bode well for the workers in california. and she is now changing her tune about all of her past view just so she can please the far right. what was that republican mantra? flip-flop? there have been a few commercials from the democratic party(not jerry brown specifically) letting us know about her less than honest money dealings in the past. i don't know, i don't trust ceos to care about anyone except themselves. poisner? he's just a hate-mongering nutball.

The FF passed a bill that required 3 things in the American education system. The 3 required things that had to be taught were religion, morality and knowledge. George Washington signed the 1st Federal Educational Bill which covered:

1. Religion
2. Morality
3. Knowledge

1devon

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Very true!!

Patick Henry (FF):

I know no way of judging the future but by the past

Thomas Jefferson

History, by apprizing them of the past will enable them to judge of the future.

htdjpf

Way, way off topic my dear.

You are just blowing in the wind. You know nothing of what you're talking about either. Take your happy pills and calm down, you're so upset you can't even spell straight.

htdjpf

I spent some time in Canada and found the people there very happy with their health care system.

But it's not about the healthcare system here. It's about these crazies in Texas who are educating innocent children to be the Ugly Americans of the future and it's xenophobes and boobs like yourself who keep those Texas Taliban in office

Texas Taliban is an awesome statement love it. Cristian taliban is also a good one on here.

Right on, S&D. But you were too kind about fitting their agenda. These jerks are nothing but *RJB's in full bloom. FYI *Repugnant Judgemental Ba$tards that can't stand people living their own lives. I have known many wonderful priests and ministers that truly tended their congregations without terrorizing them with fear and admonition. They did it the way that Jesus Christ taught us.

Love thy neighbor as thyself. Good Christians don't teach their children to hate by your example. Because if you do, chances are, they will hate.

Right wing pols have refused to cooperate on reforms of health care, finance or anything else that PBO as tried to move forward. They are fighting so that big oil, MIC, insurance companies, banks can continue to steal the futures of everyday Americans with their unethical practices. They ignore the vile, racist slurs of the low lifes that habituate their rallies as if they agree. Ie..Simple Sarah on the stump.

So it's for your conscience call, Republicans. If you stay with the Repugnican line of hate, fear and diminished returns for all. Just say no to the hateful lies spewed by Fatso and Faux News. Look for the real truth and teach your children well. But STOP trying to force your religious beliefs on everyone else, especially children that are not related to you. MYOFB

Right on, George! I did not raise my children in any kind of religious dogma. I thought them to be respectful, conscientious, and to acknowledge every human as a valued part of humanity. I taught them to hold their own council and take responsibility for their own actions.

My mother was a hell fire and brimstone bible thumper continually demeaning me and telling me I was going to hell. If I was overly happy I was sinning and it never ended until she died. I would not want my children or any child exposed to this mindset.

The Christian way is not the only way to be a good person and I don't think Christian history needs to be integrated into the curriculum. If history is taught it needs to be taught on the human everyday level with events highlighted. Names and dates are boring and kids don't learn from boring.

Sorry..off topic again...but I have experienced both American and Canadian healthcare. I bet more Americans are flying over to other countries to have surgeries than people flying into this country. Some Canadians may not want to wait for their surgeries..that is their choice if they are willing to pay. Its not a perfect system, but atleast when I go to a doctor and get something done..the ordeal ends there. In the states, once I get something done, that is when the ordeal just begins...I always end up with insurance, hospital screw ups that I have to sort out or else i will have to pay thousands of dollars sometimes.

Who knows what you will be billed for in the U.S. Sure, you are covered for the surgery, but wait, the surgeon had to use a certain tool..that part was not covered..you have to pay. The U.S. system is like giving hospitals and doctors a blank check...a doctor you never heard of or know of pops in your hospital room, asks a question...walks away..you have no idea why he was there..you never see him again..but guess what, you were just seen by an out of network doctor...pay up.

You are paying for the service down here ultimately, but you are never given a choice or price once you enter the system it seems. Its all done behind closed doors between two groups...the medical establishment and insurance companies..if the insurance companies can find a way not to pay for something, they will...the doctors will still want to get paid....and then suddenly you are notified on the outstanding balance that you become responsible for. You are left paying for something sometimes you had no idea you even bought. Nice system.

Stand and Deliver,

Do you happen to have any information to cite your quotes?

Merriam-Webster online:

a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Wouldn't the majority fit the description of a bigot?

A question coming to mind is, why is the board allowing these changes? Meaning what persuaded the changes? Would the board rule in favor of opinions and prejudices or something else?

No this country when I was a kid about 30 some years ago was great. We had kids and families of different races and religions in our small town. The fear factor was smaller. And we were proud to be Americans. Even though crime was about the same as now or worse. In bigger cities.

The country is only going to hell because of the fear mongering from people like jdfales who cannot see past whitewashing. This country, the one I am proud of is multicultural and always has been.

I am proud that many have come here sacrificing to make a dream come true. While bringing with them new ideas more foods and different words for our American language. It has allowed us to grow. And cutting off that stream of ideas and cultural growth will be our demise. I am proud that we have many different people that make up the one that we are. That we are not all just one culture. That is very boring and mundane.

If you knew your history; that is what it was called between 1450-1750 C.E. It was actually called the "Columbian Triangle" Its course was from Africa to the America's then to Europe and back to Africa. Do I need to cite sources or better yet; may I suggest you research it so you can pull your foot out of your mouth. My question to you is, if that is what it was called in the 15th through 18th centuries then why does it have to be corrected in 2010? The answer; because it was revised to promote a specific agenda. Take a college history class and you should be able to figure the rest out.

Sandwizard,

Were you taught this in school? Thanks to this controversy I wouldn't have known the bigger picture of history.

So it's not even possible that an agenda was being promoted then? I know my history, so am I supposed to agree with you? Also by that logic, we should call all bathrooms water closets and never toilets.

I have a BA in History from Indiana University and currently working on an MA in Early American History.

Sean,

What is disingenuous, is to cherry pick history and use terms like "Americans" or "America" to persuade your reader or audience that it was exclusively an "American" problem or shall I say American sin! Also, when you consider that slave trade to the western hemisphere originally started with the Portuguese and Spanish nearly 200 years before the "American Colonies" became involved then we see that European colonial powers, African tribes, Arab slave traders and eventually the American colonies were equally to blame. So slavery was not exclusive to America but it was worldwide. The majority of the slaves sent on ships from Africa experienced a 50% mortality rate due to the inhumane conditions. Arriving in the Caribbean Islands; those that survived the journey and hard labor that was to follow, eventually ended up in Northern South American and Central America. The state school boards action to restore the historically correct name of the triangle does not diminish the role of slavery in world and American history. However, it is disingenuous to imply that slavery was exclusively an American problem. I submit it was a wrong that shoulder's all of humanity. In addition it was the mining of silver that was the primary motivation of the Spanish, Portuguese, British, Dutch and French to colonize the America's because Indian and Chinese commerce was based on the silver standard and the western hemisphere became Europe's eureka. The proliferation of commerce and trade in the triangle initiated a shift from a poly-centric world led by India and China in the Pacific to the monolithic power of Great Britain in the Atlantic and eventually the world.

Sean,

I was responding to another reader who asked about my educational background.

Yippee for you oh mental midget!

So because we weren't the only ones involved, the word "slave" should not be added for the later centuries? And because it's an older term, it must be the best?

"Wacko II" you say?

I'll vote for that, if they'll agree to make it a country.

Excuse me. Christians do not resist helping the poor and the needy. Conservatives resist the government/politicians taking our money and distributing in order to advance their political agenda and in order to try and get re-elected. THAT IS NOT CHARITY! We give from the benevolence of our hearts, not tight-fisted, resentment that comes along with people taking our money against our will. So by the way, back off and stop lying about us.

lol-alright luc.

lets not forget what Christ said;

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well."

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'"

Healthcare for everyone means you're helping people. (something you guys oppose)

Just giving a little to a charity is not helping people in the long run; healthcare for everyone will. We are a nation for the people, by the people; we all deserve to be healthy, we all should pay for each other.

The politics behind it doesn't matter. You're missing the whole point.

Illegal immigration law; racist and hateful towards our southern brothers.

Instead of sending them back, we should reform the way they can get legalized, so they don't have to cross illegally. (another thing repubs oppose)

So tell me, which side is being more Christ-like again?

'For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that scripture says "you" not "the government". We have a responsibility as Christians to do good works through our church, our giving to our church, and through our giving in our personal lives. Letting the government do it for you is a cop-out. Yeah, that's right. A COP-OUT. YOU ARE COPPING OUT! Grow up, take some responsiblity, find good local charities and support them. Don't even try to lecture me about charity.

"Just giving a little to charity is not helping peoplein the long run." Bull crap, sir. The government programs are not helping people. I have had first hand experience with the welfare system. It does not help in the long run. It ENABLES and holds people hostage. It is oppressive.

On illegal immigration, we want the border secured, you are misconstruing the position on the other side. Nice. Stop lying. Once the border is secured, you will be hard pressed to find people that will refuse to create an avenue for citizenship.

I never said the border, now did I?

I said the illegal immigration law. The one in Arizona that McCain made up? It's segregating all hispanics in the US.

How is that lying?

"Just giving a little to charity is not helping peoplein the long run." Bull crap, sir. The government programs are not helping people. I have had first hand experience with the welfare system. It does not help in the long run. It ENABLES and holds people hostage.

It is oppressive.

So are you. You clearly have no idea what it's like to be without a job and zero assistance from anyone; especially when the economic collapse is NOT your fault. Tell me, how do you expect people to pay their bills when they got laid off and can't find any jobs? Unemployment benefits are doing wonders for these people. They're keeping these people alive for the time being-at least until the economy gets a boost.

You need to stop listening to the bs coming from FOX. They do nothing but spread propaganda; much like Texas is doing right now.

And yes, I have plenty of say in what charity does; I contribute plenty too. And let me tell you, it can't solve our problems. It's like giving a band-aid to a cancer patient; if you only go after the symptoms and not the root of the problem, it will never be cured.

We need to improve the way our country is run and what kind of benefits the citizens have; without it, we do not advance, no matter how many charities there are. What part of that don't you understand?

"You clearly have no idea what it's like to be without a job and zero assistance from anyone; especially when the economic collapse is NOT your fault."

I guess you missed the part where I said I have had first hand experience with the welfare system. Unfortunately, the government programs have destroyed any feeling of family and community that we used to have. You know, back when people took care of each other? What happened before all these government benefits?

I have nothing against short-term unemployment assistance. I do have a problem with people being on it for 2 years. People are choosing to not go back to work because they would be taking a lower-paying job. If they can bring home a check from the government for 50% of their old pay, why go back to work full-time and make 75% of their old pay? I gaurantee you this...when unemployment benifits stop, people will find jobs.

If I need to stop listening to FOX, you need to stop listening to MSNBC......

Again, the government is not charity. And if charity is a band-aid to a cancer patient, government programs are a doctor saying "here's some asprin, that'll help with the pain". The government gives limited and temporary pain relief to problems we face. The government is treating the symptoms, not charities.

Your last paragraph makes it clear that you are a socialst progressive and I doubt anything I say makes sense to you. To you, government is the only solution. If we come to a place where government is the only solution, we have lost freedom. Give me freedom or give me death. I'm done with this back-and-forth. It's ridiculous having an American coversation with a socialst. It doesn't work.

Um...we've been socialist for a long time, don't know if you know that.

It's crucial to what makes America what it is.

You throw around the term like it's dirty, but you don't understand that you reap those benefits daily.

Socialists generally share the view that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and derives its wealth through a system of exploitation. This in turn creates an unequal society, that fails to provide equal opportunities for everyone to maximize their potential,technology and resources to their maximum potential nor in the interests of the public.

I do have a problem with people being on it for 2 years.

Unfortunately, that's how long our economy has been in the gutter. How can you expect anyone to find a job if nobody is hiring still??

Hello, wake up call.

If our government focused on education reform and supporting higher education more, we would all see better days. Many of our problems would be solved, including the issues we're both debating.

And if the obscenely wealthy of this country wouldn't need bailing out, the people of this country that are on welfare and unemployment wouldn't be suffering, now would they?

Luc,

I think you're forgetting that the pronoun "you" can be singular OR plural, can represent a person OR an entity (and yes, the government IS an entity). I think you're also forgetting that parables are METAPHORIC, not literal. So in the METAPHOR, yes, the "you" refers to a specific person, but when you apply the lesson in the metaphor to real life, the "you" can refer to a person, a group of people, or even a governing body.

You may also want to refrain from referring to everyone on here as Christians as well (like you did when you wrote "WE have a responsibility..."). You may be a Christian, but that doesn't mean your whole audience is or that everyone you're representing is as well.

And by the way, your argument makes no allowances for those among us (including myself) who give copiously to charity in both time and money AND WHO ALSO want to see their government do the same. I pay in my fair share as a taxpayer, and if I want to see my tax money go to humanitarian needs elsewhere, I have as much of a right to support that as you have to rail against it. Furthermore, what charity work you and I do on our own can only go so far. We have neither the reach nor the power/ability to get aid to those who need it more desperately than those we see on a daily basis.

On government programs: Oppressive is the LAST word I would ever consider using to describe Welfare. Misused might be a wee bit more accurate. And instead of scrubbing the whole darn thing cause of the relatively few bad seeds who abuse the system, what you should be considering is ways of IMPROVING it so that it cannot be misused or abused. Don't blame the game -- blame the players.

On illegal immigration: why should the border be secured? I guarantee you, somewhere down the line, your own ancestors got into this country, just as mine did, and just as the illegal aliens are doing today. You think because you're already here you have a right to say who can be here and who can't? That worked out real well for the Native Americans, no? And why do you think that securing the border and "creat[ing] avenues for citizenship" are mutually exclusive or that they cannot occur simultaneously? It's a powerplay.

Back to the REAL issue at hand: Texas should not be allowed to make such changes to the curriculum for several reasons.

1) Revisionist history never did anyone any favors. Calling the slave trade by any other name, esp. one so nominalized as "The Atlantic Triangle Trade," is ludicrous. The ONLY purpose for nominalization is to disassociate the negative connotation. Calling it the slave trade hits you in the gut and reminds you of the inhumanity and brutality of it. Callingn it the Atlantic Triangle Trade sterilizes it, thereby making it seem like less of a barbarity.

2) Jefferson played a very important role in the shaping of the Constitution, and to downplay his contributions for the political sake of the current Texas BoE is a farce. Jefferson was right to champion the separation of church and state. It is neither ethically right nor pragmatically acceptable to legislate morality. The second you start allowing the legislation of morality is the second you see America become a theocracy.

3) As a country, we share ONE history, whether Texans like it or not. Sweeping it under the rug or changinng its name does not change history itself, and if you hide the lessons of the past from today's youth, you are doominng them to repeat those mistakes. That's not to say that they'll go out and start up the slave trade anew, but it can and will retard their intellectual growth and therefore their societal advancement.

I absolutely and completely disagree with what Texas is trying to do, and I am fairly certain it is unConstitutional as well. "

Among the recommendations facing a final vote: adding language saying the country's Founding Fathers were guided by Christian principles and including positive references to the Moral Majority, the National Rifle Association and the GOP’s Contract with America." This is essentially brainwashing -- if they need to "include positive references to the Moral Majority," the implication is that those references do not currently exist. They are making a conscious effort to mold the minds of young Texans with OPINIONS, NOT FACTS.

"Other amendments to the state's curriculum standards for kindergarten through 12th grade would...require that students learn about "the unintended consequences" of affirmative action"..... Really!? I'm not so naive as to think that affirmative action works as well in practice as it does on paper. But by referring to the "unintended consequences," the Texas Board is casting an incredibly negative pall over the whole idea.

And that brings me to (hopefully) my final point. Since when do patriotism and Christianity go hand-in-hand? I'm referring, of course, to the "Founded under God" section in the article. Dunbar states several times that the purpose of these... revisions... is to "promote patriotism." But they seem to be more focused on refining an ultra-conservative handbook for the indoctrination of the Texas youth. Isn't the true mark of greatness, a greatness that should DESERVE patriotism of its own accord, in the overcoming of that which separated us or that which held us back? So, instead of teaching their children about all of the good things that we did as a country, Texas is going to just pretend we were great to start with? I'm being facetious, of course, but the point is there. Patriotism, like respect, has to be EARNED. If you want to promote patriotism in the Texas youth, teach them about all of the obstacles we have overcome as a country -- don't sweep them under the rug or rename them. Emphasize how crucial each one of those steps was -- breaking from England and why we did it; suffering through the years of slavery, culminating in the Emancipation Proclamation and the Civil War; debating back and forth over the value and place of religion (ANY religion) in today's society.

If Texas ratifies these changes, we all suffer as a country. The "dumb American" stereotype will become a little more real, much to my chagrin.

We have a responsibility as Christians to do good works through our church, our giving to our church, and through our giving in our personal lives.

First of all, you are assuming that we are all Christians -- we are not. You are assuming that we all go to church -- we do not. You are assuming that we "give" -- we do not. And the Constitution gives us the freedom to do this.

However, if these so-called "Christians" -- as well as the more fortunate among us -- could be depended upon to do the right thing and help those less fortunate, we would not be in this position, would we, where government-provided help is often the only choice some people have?

As far as border security is concerned, you're living in a dream world if you think that once the border is secured, all will be sweetness and light within country -- illegal aliens are not the root of all evil, contrary to popular belief. *sarcasm*

BRAVO, concerned American!

friend request sent.

"Your last paragraph makes it clear that you are a socialst progressive and I doubt anything I say makes sense to you. To you, government is the only solution. If we come to a place where government is the only solution, we have lost freedom. Give me freedom or give me death. I'm done with this back-and-forth. It's ridiculous having an American coversation with a socialst. It doesn't work."

Nothing like a good hypocrite. Instead of seeing this debate to the end, he calls names and refuses to continue. The true merit in debate is the willingness, for just one moment, to accept that the other person MIGHT be right and that you MIGHT be wrong. If you cannot do that, you cannot call yourself a logical person.

Or do they not teach logic or rhetoric in Texas?

Logic and rhetoric taught in Texas? You're kidding, right? That might mean we could learn to think for ourselves. We might actually *gasp* question the social conservatives and expect them to back up their "facts" with more than just a bible.

After 32 years in the work force, I have found myself unemployed for the second time in over two years. Without the extended unemployment benefits everything that I had worked for would have been lost.

I am just one person, but contrary to what you think I do not sit at home twiddling my thumbs, hoping that a job will come along. I spend hours searching websites, writing resumes and cover letters, improving my skills, working on new skills, reading articles on how to put together an impressive resume/cover letter as well as how to sell myself at an interview, all in the hopes of landing a job/any job.

I am not holding out for loads of money/perks or big benefits. All I want is a job that I can go to. A place to belong, live and give....but so do the other 50-500 people applying for the same position.

Slave trade, slave trade, wherefore art thou slave trade? A brutality by any other name would be just as inhumane...

Luc - in my experience, what you guys call "Christian charity" is usually limited to people who look like you, talk like you and go to your church (or who will agree to in exchange for a little help.) It's just a bigoted way of "helping" your own kind.

Good luck to you Alice and thank you for your comments. Being unemployed is one of the worst feelings many people can go through but you continue to do the best you can. That is something I admire. I hope you find a job soon.

To Luc, What happened before these benefits? The depression. Many starving families who lost everything. Charities doing whatever they could but were overwhelmed with the amount of needy.

Is that what you would like to return to?

I have a quote for Luc, someone please tell me who said this?

"The measure of any society is how it treats the least among them."

that means, it IS the government's business to keep people from being homeless, starving, or dying of curable diseases.

I've had dealings with those so called 'christian charities'. I am disabled and on life saving medications, and was for a time without health insurance due to my husband losing his job. the only organizations to be applied to where I live are christian based. I was hoping to get a little of jesus's charitable spirit. what i got was ranted at, called dirty names, accused of terrible things, and then hung up on. All because the first of many medicines I needed was a hormone medicine. FYI, that medicine kept me from bleeding to death from uterine hemorrhaging.

This is why I take so seriously the attempts of right wing religious people, not genuine followers of christ and his socialist and humanistic teachings, but those out for power over others, so very seriously. I don't care where it comes from, absolute power corrupts absolutely. And yes, I said Christ was a socialist, and i meant it.

Sandwizard,

Were you taught this in school? Thanks to it being mentioned I wouldn't have known the bigger picture of history.

maglindracia,

Hubert Humphrey:

The moral test of a government is how it treats those who are at the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the aged; and those who are in the shadow of life, the sick and the needy, and the handicapped."

Isn't this interesting...

• We abort "those who are at the dawn of life"
• The government decides "those who are in the shadow of life" are worth their health care or not.

Thomas Jefferson

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."

thanks, allea, though that isn't the quote i was paraphrasing from. I really wish i didn't have sporadic memory holes from meds, I think my quote is much older than that one, though it is quite fitting.

Hey! Texas is like any other place; it's the people who shout the loudest who get heard. And unfortunately, we just have a very vocal group of idiots.

There ARE those of us in Texas who oppose these measures just as vehemently as any of you who are speaking out. Please do not paint us all with the same brush. It is a large state, with a very diverse population. By assuming that all Texans are "white trailer trash", as 1devon states, you are making the same kind of close-minded, judgemental statement that the Revisionists on the BoE are advocating.

Please think before you type, and think before you insult an entire state for the idiocy of some residents of said state.

Lys--Then do what you can to remove these fools from office. They're embarrassing not only your state but the entire country.

-post deleted-

AP - Members are appointed to the BOE - NOT elected.

One has to look no further than our very 'special' governor of Texas to see where the problem begins in government. (other than at the ballot box, and conversely the confusing issue of being able to find where they switched the voting site to for the most current election without giving notice). And yes, please, we are not all the same here, any more than in any other state. We are as embarrassed and horrified by the BoE as most of you are. Lumping all Texans together is as incorrect as lumping everyone who believes in god in the same group.

Might have something to do with all the illegal immigration goin on down there....... Also, if u make broad brush cclaims like that please site a source. I could come on here saying "OMG California ranks in the top 5 in divorce, teen pregnancy, drug abuse, gang violence, and RACISM!" California=hypocrites!!

Well, then teen pregnancy can be attributed to Mexicans, and only because they're majority Catholic and against birth control.

Alcohol abuse? I was killin beers by the time I was 14, it's a rite of passage thing. Plus we have some outstanding beers (especially from the Hill Country, where many many many Germans settled). Not to mention the availability of fine Mexican tequila, and the Balinese Room in Galveston was the birthplace of margaritas.

Divorce? Well, it's better than letting a relationship lapse so much that it gets abusive.

And I don't appreciate being called a redneck, mainly because I don't have a blue collar job. Now, my blue collar friends love being rednecks, but that has to do with being out in the sun, and being pround of what they do.

Now, ask a Texan anything.

When the christians claim that abortion is a sin what is not caring for your fellow citzen? a sin of pride? A government is a nation that's main objective is to maintain justice for a all. Yet the christians counter to their faith demonize any justice for all.

Health care in our nation was started by christian fellowship to comply with christ word to help the needed. It has evoled in to corprate business. Were profits are placed high above christ's words...

Was that a question?

And I'm all for healthcare reform. My the dem in my screen name stands for democrat.

I'm just defending Texas as a whole.

Yeah, I'm all for healthcare reform as long as I'm not using my tax dollars to funs someone else's lazy butt who doesnt want to go out and get a damn job. As long as that reform makes it so I can actually afford to use the health plan I am paying for. Why should I have to pay for healthcare and then pay deductibles when some lazyaZs sits on their butt with no job can go to the doctor as many times as they want without paying a dime?

because as a christian you're not supposed to judge other people. you don't know the story of everyone so please do not judge everyone who is on welfare. the problem we are having now is we are living with the result of the republicans' "trickle-down economics." worked out great, ya think? the idea is that big business is dereguated and all those ceos would gladly act with integrity and pass along their huge profits to their employees. oops! the framers of this idea forgot a fundamental human attribute...greed. so, today the ceos are making millions and millions of dollars in personal income while the people whose backs they stand on can't pay their bills. they minimize their workforce, forcing the rest of us to do more work for less money so that they can continue to get record paychecks. i work for a company whose ceo is a multimillionaire and yet many of the people who work for him must supplement their incomes with public welfare. this ceo and all of the others should be ashamed for themselves. if they were acting with integrity, we wouldn't have such high unimployment and those of us who do work(and i work damn hard every day) would get paid enough to live on with some dignity. we need to bring back the regulations that controlled out of this world greed.

amen!

Woot, Alessa!!!

MyTexas - pretty ignorant overall commentary. as you trash all the "lazyazs" for needing some of UR tax dollars to help with their healthcare .... you fail to realize that without healthcare reform, there is a large segment of uninsured that do nothing for preventive care, and then end up in an emergency room at over 5x the cost of preventive care, of course they can't afford that, and THAT cost is passed on to the insured. If you wake up and realize that by reforming NOW, and kick out lobbyists fatcat etc.... YOU and the rest of us are better off and overall lower premiums. It is the RIGHT thing to do.

Now - since you made it abundantly clear you have no interest in welfare type situations siince you lump it all in as "lazyazs's" - then i guess you would do away with the entire federal tax dollars allocation to support other states? Just so you know, TX is the only red state that actually pays more into the fund than they receive back in federal dollars. .95cents back for every dollar in from last report i saw. ALL other red states take in MORE than they pay into it. Which basically tells you that all the blue states basically are paying the way on a welfare socialist platform to all the red states that run around claiming they don't want govt involved, and they don't like welfare/socialism etc. It is a huge hypocritical situation that i wish garnered more attention. So back off on blaming things on LAZY people, and realize that people need people at times to lift each other up. It makes us all stronger. Your precious tx and its like minded red state neighbors NEED the blue state support for the existence of lifestyle you know. (ie paved roads etc). Unless you favor getting back the full dollar to dollar to put into tx only, and damn to all your red state brethren as well.....

"...their Creator..."

Does it say their Christian Creator? Their Jewish Creator? Their alien Creator?

NO!!! It says THEIR Creator, whomever or whatever that may be to each and every free person in this wonderful nation!

Christians don't own the word.

Charger, you quote from the Declaration of Independence, which is not the basis of our government; the Constitution is. And the Constitution does not mention god (except "In the year of our Lord" part at the end), Jesus, or religion (except in the First Amendment, the Establishment Clause).

How do you know we were not created by the big-bang theory? Have you proven or disproven creationism vs. science?

What if "their Creator" refers to the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Chargernut thinks he's an astrophysicist.

Chargernut, LOL...I have never heart it put like that before.

Maybe the question should be how is “Christian nation” understood or defined?

Once someone explained, “We are not a Christian Nation because it doesn't use the words, “Christian nation” in The Constitution.”

That point of view opened a huge door of understanding. So, because The Declaration doesn't use the specific words “Christian nation” they do not believe we are a Christian nation vs. understanding a concept of a Christian nation being founded on Christian morals and the like.

Your own quote only further proves you wrong. We're not arguing about whether we should be forced to observe Christian tenets here anyway. We're arguing about the next generation's right to know the truth. Lying is not a Christian value.