The Islamic Center is being built in America, where we allow and tolerate different religions. It is protected by the Constitution and a founding principle of this nation. What other countries allow and not allow is irrelevant. We operate under different constitutionally protected principles. It makes no difference if Muslims were killed in the 9/11 attack or not (though some were killed). It matters that we protect a minority, no matter how small, no matter how much another group may find it distasteful, because that is what freedom to practice your religion means. It doesn't mean others get to dictate terms.

One of the cornerstones our country was built on is the Freedom of Religion. Therefore, we cannot pick and choose who gets to practice which religion. As James states above, that freedom is protected by our Constitution. I'm getting pretty tired of folks who claim they want our Constitution protected yet prove with their rhetoric that they really don't; clearly illustrated in all its ugliness by the protest of the building of this community center.

Oh, please. Christians forcibly converted Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and anyone else they could for centuries. Remember those lovely evangelistic meetings called the Crusades? And today they still go all over the world trying to convince people whose religion is different that theirs is better and if others don't accept it they will go to an eternal hell. They build churches al over Muslim countries. Mecca and Medina are sacred cities for Muslims. New York is not a sacred city in any way. Is ground zero any less "sacred" to you knowing that many Muslim-Americans died there too on 911? Or Hindus? Or atheists? or Jews? or anyone else who doesn't fit your Christian triumphalist worldview?

The mosque is not being built *on* ground zero. It is a few blocks away. And it has already been in use as a place of prayer for Muslims for a long time, even before 911. Now it will be a center for prayer, for worship, and a place for moderate Muslims - you know, the ones everyone always screams that they haven't heard but the media ignores anyway - to meet. Time to get over the stupid, jingoistic, xenophobic idea that all Muslims are terrorists, that all support terrorism, or that all of them want to convert you to their religion. They don't. They have a right to build this mosque just as you have a right never to set foot in it.

Were the Christians who fought in the Crusades, or carried out the Inquisition, or burned people at the stake real Christians in your way of thinking? If so, your idea of Christianity and Christ's teachings are pretty sick. If not, then you can understand that the terrorists who flew the planes on 911 into the WTC in the name of Islam *were not* real Muslims in the eyes of most Muslims.

Give the jingoism and bigotry a rest.

This abomination has no need to be so close to ground-zero where the Islamic jihadist scum killed our loved ones.

Mike -

Yes I do. For starters let's take just the mention of violence in comparison between the Bible and the Koran. The Bible is a much larger book than the Koran. Quantitatively the Bible has more references to violence than the Koran but less horrific. Qualitatively, or pound for pound, the Koran can't be beat, it takes the cake on written representation of violence. That's just for starters.

In addition, it is well publicized through widely available written and filmed documentation the obvious brutal barbarity that exists in Muslim countries. That's all I need to know along with their outlandish penchant to gleefully murder in the name of Allah. What utter bull$hit.

Leave it to the Republicans like SARAH to be on the side of xenophobia and against the US laws and US Constitution.

"Republican Values"

Perhaps never. But this is America where we think differently and tolerate other's beliefs including their religions. Or did those who oppose this mosque forget that?

Our expressed hatred for Muslims is eagerly published within the Muslim community estimated to be in the hundres of millions. The more we express and publish our hatred of Muslims and insult their religion, the more they recruit and the more of our troops who are killed and wounded in what is becoming a holy war to the delight of a lot of right wing religious nuts.

The Cheney philosophy that "if we slap them around a little they will show some respect" hasn't worked very well.

We lost 3,000 in a sensless attack on 911 and we retaliated with a senseless war in Iraq that killed several hundred thousand and displaced some 5 million Muslims.

As a vet, I would suggest that we put a little thought into focusing more on diplomacy which won't be easy and less on brute force unless the objective is to exterminate the entire Muslim world.

The Islamic Center is being built in America, where we allow and tolerate different religions. It is protected by the Constitution and a founding principle of this nation. What other countries allow and not allow is irrelevant.

I totally agree with you and Jim's question that reads "When will the Catholic, Methodist, and Baptist churches be allowed to be built in Mecca and Medina" is an ignorant one. We're going to persecute an entire group of individuals on account of what a few did. If so would be unfair.

James,

I get where you're coming from and you are right from a constitutional point of view. My problem with this is when do we say ENOUGH!? If we allow this, what next? Will the Radical Muslims be able to build a shrine near the twin towers site to honor those who killed themselves in the planes they crashed into the twin towers? Racical Islam is allegedly a form of religion as well.

We need look no further than Europe and Brittian who welcomed the Muslims to build their Mosques there and see the problems caused by the so called "peaceful Muslims" to see our future if we allow them to get a real foot hold here.

Let them practice "freedom of religion" as allowed in our constitution somewhere besides near the site of the former twin towers. You are aware that the Koran says that those who do not worship Allah are infidels and must be killed aren't you. Look it up for yourself if you don't believe me.

"KORAN commands to kill infidels:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you."

This is what New York wants to allow near the 9/11 site with open arms?

It's a death sentence to even carry a bible in muslim countrys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No way would they allow a church.

No, because unlike the U.S., Saudi Arabia doesn't have the sort of modern religious freedoms that we enjoy here...there's a big difference between how we should expect a Muslim absolute democracy to act, and how we should expect ourselves to act. We are above that!!! I think it's proof that a moderate Muslim place of worship can exist as an alternative to the cowards that attacked the WTC...

Or are quite a few Christian radicals here simply morphing into religious fundamentalists just like those who attacked us? Ask yourself that question..

MIKe

You know I don't know a thing about being a child molester either BUT I would not want a rehab site for child rapists on the site where my son or daughter was raped either! Would you??

Have any of you 'Christians' burned a witch today?

You should not let a sorceress live.

Have any of you 'Christians' killed a homo today?

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."

Have any of you anti abortion Chrisitans killed yourself today?

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.

Have any of you good 'Christians' killed your own kids today?

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.

Have any of you good 'Chrisitians' killed women for NOT being virgins on their wedding night?

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.

I'm jusy sayin...

The Bible is a much larger book than the Koran. Quantitatively the Bible has more references to violence than the Koran but less horrific.

I've never read the Koran, but I find it difficult to believe that there are too many things there more horrific than killing the first-born sons of an entire nation, or having a bear tear apart young children for making fun of a prophet - just to give a couple of examples from the Bible.

Do any of you even know what Sharia law is? According to the Sharia, despite declarations of the equality of the sexes before God, women are considered inferior to men, and have fewer rights and responsibilities. A woman counts as half a man in giving evidence in a court of law, or in matters of inheritance. A husband has the moral and religious right and duty to beat his wives for disobedience or for perceived misconduct. A woman does not have the right to choose her husband, or her place of residence, to travel freely or have freedom in her choice of clothing. On the pretext of protecting their honor women are kept locked up, isolated and unable to enjoy a full life or to develop their potential. Under the Taliban many war widows were forced into starvation. Their crime? Had they prayed harder their husbands would have survived! Women deserve to be treated as autonomous human beings and for this reason alone misogynistic Political Islam and its imposition of the Sharia should be opposed.

Does anyone even know that there are already 100+ Mosques in NYC? Why is it so important to have a Mosque near ground zero?

As a frequent visitor to NYC, I am appalled that you would even consider allowing a Muslim Mosque anywhere near the site of the world trade center. This is supposed to be a place where family and friends can go to remember their lost loved ones. How do you think they would feel having to walk past a Muslim mosque to get there? This is totally insensitive not only to the families but also to the rest of the US as we all watched in horror as the events transpired that day and will never forget. They don’t want to be friends with us, they want to destroy us. This will not bring any of us closer together but further apart. Remember, some of those terrorists trained after prayers in their mosques in back rooms. I’m sure they are laughing at our stupidity to even consider this. I am begging you to please put a stop to this. I will pray daily that you will end this insanity. I wrote the above to Mayor Bloomberg, his response...

Our Administration strongly supports the right of faith groups to open houses of worship, or community centers, in whatever location they choose, provided it complies with all applicable laws.

What happened to separation of church and state?

Jim-149,

If you like the way things are done in Mecca and Medina, why not go live there? Here the Constitution and over 900 years of progressive law guarantee religious freedom. The moment the first person bars the first church, of any religion, using the government as an agent, the Constitution is effectively destroyed.

The Founding Fathers were well aware of what happens when religious freedom is curtailed --- they knew what happened to people in the Plymouth Colony and Rhode Island Colony and the Cromwell days from Britain as a result of religious intolerance. They had no intention of allowing the monster of religious intolerance to rear its ugly head in this country.

Until this country truly values diversity and practices tolerance, there is little hope for anything other than decline. One of the greatest pieces of wisdom in the Bible is found in both Matthew and Mark when Jesus said that a house divided against itself cannot stand. I am not a religious zealot, but I can spot a Great Truth when I hear it.

Every day this country stands more and more divided against itself. It is already perhaps more divided than in the dismal days just prior to the Civil War. Perhaps it is elements who wish to see this country weakened by division. Or perhaps it is just a sort of cancer that is always present in human nature. I don't know. But I do know that I am 66 and have not seen this level of hate speech in my lifetime.

What happened to separation of church and state?

Has the government passed any laws that respecting an establishment of religion?

NO

Has the Government passed any laws that prohibit the free exercise of religion?

NO

Has the Government done anything to favor one religion over another?

NO

I'd say the seperation is alive and well!

Do any of you even know what Sharia law is?

Something beyond a worthless Republican talking point? YUP! How is it applicable here in the US? It isn't...

It is just a worthless Republican talking point. Here in the US we have US Law, not Sharia law.

You can't even bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia.

Sounds like a GREAT argument in favor of the seperation of church and state to me!

Diduever...look up Vladimir the Impaler (a Christian) to see true barbarism.

Mark500225,

To respond to your simplistic question to my post above, let me try to say it in simple terms you might understand: there is no comparison.

The issue here is freedom of religion, pure and simple. NOw, you may not like that freedom. Or you may not like that that freedom applies to every citizen of this country, no matter what.

When you make monster truck pulls and ripping dolls in half a legitimate, recognized religion in this country, then you will have an argument. Until then, if you want to compare, compare using a valid premise.

Let me help: If your church suddenly decided that every person who wasn't a Christian must convert or be tortured to death, and did so on the public square in my town, or came and took over my place of worship and did that, and some of the victims of that were my wife and children; and then your church built a church on the public square or changed my church into one that you found acceptable, why yes, I would find that offensive. I might even get angry enough to protest, possibly even violently.

BUT...the difference is that the Muslims who are building this mosque did not do any of those things. They are not building it on the site of 911. They are not violent and not trying to take over your place of worship or a sacred site.

THE REALITY is that Christianity has done every single one of those things over the millennia, continues to do so in many parts of the world, and does so even here today with its persecution of gays, lesbians, and anyone who is not part of the right-wing Christian movement. Now, it is not all Christians who do this. There are many, perhaps even most, with level heads, some who are aware of and appreciate difference, and who do not support such nonsense. The same with most Muslims.

Every single religion has its fanatics, violent and otherwise. Even Christianity. Tell me...do you think Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church, the "Christians" who protest against homosexuality, saying that God hates America, at soldiers funerals are right? And whether or not they are, are they protected by the right to express their religious views as they do as long as they act within the law? I think they are a bunch of frauds, jerks, anti-American, anti-troops, bigoted morons. But I also believe they have their rights and even the right to build another of their houses of hate wherever they want if they choose under the laws of the state and community they live in and want to build. (I hope they don't.) But it's time to move past the pointing fingers and realize that whether you like it or not, American Muslims are protected by the same rights as American "Christians" as long as they are acting within the law. And in this case, they are.

Zaphod,

There's one giant hole to your argument, you see Christians dont actually stone people to death, or kidnap and behead them, or kill schools full of girls for learning how to write.

They did some drastic, disgusting things say, 500, 700 years ago, when people still thought the earth was the center of the universe and God was behind thunder. We're in the 21st century now pal. You're "people" are doing these atrocities today as a way of life.

AHH You all are idiots! Why on earth would you build a mosque in such a contentious place?! You prove nothing except that those who oppose islam have no say in their government.

"OHHH If you oppose a religion your a bad person (unless its Christianity, then you can bash it all day long)!" First of all, no it doesnt. I think Islam is fundamentally flawed personally and is geared to breed radicalism. I mean, why not put a catholic church up instead to show that catholics are supportive of the victims of 9/11 and are dedicated to world peace? Because it would say that catholicism is in opposition to the muslims who attacked us. but puttiing a mosque up is like saying, do it again! well put another one up for you too so you can expand your religion inside the US!

but this is besides the point. The reason it should not be built there is that what is wrong with putting up a memorial instead? Its not so controversial and in your face.

Zaphod (rhymes with Jihad,eh?) trying to bash Christianity with quotes from the Old Testament won't fly with those of us who have actually studied the bible as part of our faith not as an excuse to persecute people of faith!! Approving of a Muslim country's intolerance as an attempt to sway us to be more tolerant of Islam is kinda strange BTW.

Trying to use the ancient acts of Christians in far away lands (or even early America) versus a barbaric act committed less than 10 years ago on our home soil doesn't fly either!! 9/11 was an attack on our own soil perpetrated by ISLAMIC JIHADISTS!! To place a Mosque so close to the site of that outrage is a slap at the face of the U.S. !! Too bad the PCers are too sick from the pandemic to realize it !!!

The new World Trade Tower is privately owned. It is up to the owners of the property to decide what is or isn't appropriate to their vision of their space.

The U.S. Government has closed mosques that were possible clearing houses for Muslim lunatic fringe. But, the U.S. Government has also closed down Christian-cult lunatic centers, too.

The Muslims who are at odds with their own religion are the fewest, but also the loudest. Most Muslims are ordinary people who are as disgusted at jihad's dogma as you might be at allowing a conservative Christian fundamentalist group rule your life. But, how does one separate the "good" from the "bad?" I'll leave that one up to The Bible:

"Let a tree be known by the fruit that it bears."

And if a mosque becomes a problem, close it. Otherwise, we are all children of Abraham, and all are worshiping the same god, be it God, Allah, or Jehovah

It has nothing to do with freedom of religion. It has everything to do with these Muslims wanting to buid their Mosque as close as possible to ground zero. This is being done to spite the victims of 9/11. The could have built this thing anywhere in New York. Why so close?

That is what is suppose to be great about america that we are suppose to look past race and religion but it seems to me that we contradict our selves at every pass. It is disturbing how many people feel that they are at war with a religion. It's disgusting!

Boycott New York City!!!!!!!

Timothy McVeigh was born and raised Catholic. He left his Catholic upbringing as an adult and pursued militant, extremist interests. His actions do not reflect traditional Catholic values any more then the Talibaabn represents traditional Islamic values. McVeigh's motives were political, as were those of the Muslim-born extremists who brought down the World Trade Center, killing some American Muslims in the process. Yet, would there even be a conversation if a Catholic church and community center was planned for construction just 2 blocks from the Oklahoma City bombing site? I doubt it.

Why is it that for the last year and a half,those in power are making major decisions that are going against how the majority of the American people feel. Those in power are NOT listening to the American people!!!!

Looking at all the responses above me I see people talking about freedom of religion and some people thinking it's a slap in the face and shouldn't be allowed.

Unfortunately I have to agree that they MUST allow this mosque to be built in this spot if any other church would be allowed to be built there.

However, this raises another point. Just because you have a right to do something doesn't mean you SHOULD go ahead and do it. Along with other's obligation to allow you to exercise your rights, is your obligation to exercise them wisely.

While we may not be able to stop this mosque from being built, we don't have to respect the decision to build it.

This mosque was supposed to be a show of respect for those who dies in 9/11. What it will do is throw back relations between Muslims and NY citizens by years.

Whatever the reason it is to be built. Building it here on this spot shows a major lack of judgment and sensitivity toward the city residents. We hear from Muslims how the US shows a lack of sensitivity to their religion. Well here is a good example how Muslims show a lack of sensitivity for the US.

Technically, they are within their right to build...However, for a group who is trying to overcome a very strong negative stereotype due to 9/11...I think its a gross mistake...

In an attempt to avoid being labeled Anti-Muslim, I'm going to suggest to the Muslim community to acknowledge some Americans have a negative view and distrust of Muslims, simply because of 9/11 and the continued threats against the US from Muslim radicals since that time. The World Trade Center location was the center of that hatred and distrust. To build a structure so close to the epicenter of the Trade Center can be very easily perceived as a slap in the face to those who perished on that day.

Technically they are within their rights, morally they are completely wrong...

When will the plans be ready?

Zaphod,

There's one giant hole to your argument, you see Christians dont actually stone people to death, or kidnap and behead them, or kill schools full of girls for learning how to write.

Dead is DEAD... what difference does the HOW make?

Wow, I'm not even going to attempt to further debate you with that logic.

I love how petty so many people in here are..."Hey, they wouldn't let us put a church in their town, so we shouldn't let them!". Let me see if I have the reasoning correct...if someone does something to you then you should be allowed to pay them back. Oh that's right! I forgot...that's the definition of "turn the other cheek" right?!

Childish simple-minded hypocrites. God forbid you ever take a high road.

It doesn't matter what you feel. It has nothing to do with what the majority of people want! We are a country governed by the Constitution!

Whether it be an AZ immigration law that majority of AZ embraces (AZ is mostly republican) or a gun ban in Chicago that most liberals embraced. Both of these laws were unconstitutional. The Constitution protects religious freedom. And we shouldn't blame an entire religion for the actions of a few.

Have you forgotten 9-11, and how not a single Muslim anywhere in the world spoke out against the attack on the Twin Towers? Not one Muslim denounced the 9-11 attack, and now THEY WANT TO BUILD A SHRINE TO ISLAM WITHIN A STONE'S THROW OF WHERE THE TWIN TOWERS FELL. If you have actually forgotten 9-11, you can refresh your memory of what violent Muslim cowards plan to do to YOU by googling truthtube.tv or barenakedislam. There are no videos of the 9-11 hijackers cutting the throats of the flight attendants with box cutters, but there are other videos demonstrating the wrath of Muslims on "infidels". Have you ever googled "Musilm beheading", or "Muslim stoning"? You can see a video of a beautiful 17-year-old Muslim girl being brutally beaten, kicked and "stoned" to death by a crowd of cowardly Muslim men, because her father and brothers labeled her an "adulterer". You can also see a video of a 12-year-old Muslim boy cutting a man's head completely off, while a group of other Muslim cowards hold the man, whose hands and feet are bound, down on the ground. You cannot argue with video.

BUILD YOUR MUSLIM "MOSQUE" SOMEWHERE ELSE.

As a woman from a free country, they are way too close for comfort. I worked for some Muslim's in the USA and they made me take a pay cut so I wouldn't make more than the Muslim men they were bringing over to work in the same school. I quit. Won't do that again. They do not respect our values and we are inviting trouble by tolerating such a slap in the face. I really don't think Obama will be reelected after this.

DeepGoat...."Not one Muslim denounced the 9-11 attack"...not one? You are 100% sure of that? I'm gonna guess you pulled that out of your....

You can all say all you want about how this or that muslim did this or that bad thing, but that can be just as easily turned around on you. How many people were killed during the Inquisition by Christians? How many people people did the Nazi's (Christians) kill because of religion? You can go on and on when it comes to religious killings. At the end of the day, all religious killings are being done in the name of fairy tales.

Stop the old "American Freedom of Religion" stuff. Islam is a political process wrapped in religion.And my naive friends; we are not included in that process. So stop being useful idiots for these folks.

Should we put a statue of Hitler in Jerusalem so the Jews can forgive what happened? This Mosque is in the worst taste in this location. Sign the petition to stop the Mosque www.stopthemosquenow.com

We have over 33 mosques in the United States so it's not that we're intolerant of a mosque, just this one and have questions on who is funding it and need answers from this IMAM

How Dare you compare America to any other country. Land of the Free. Plain and simple.

As soon as Hooters open a branch in the Vatican. You're comparing Mecca to the urine smelling, trash filled, mob controlled manhattan to Mecca?

The Dog-1572444
"Stop the old "American Freedom of Religion" stuff. Islam is a political process wrapped in religion.And my naive friends; we are not included in that process."
Do you mean like the Moral Majority in America? OR the way that no one could be elected president in the country of religious freedom who isn't a practicing christian? Oh that's right, we are allowed to be hypocrites.

Our Administration strongly supports the right of faith groups to open houses of worship, or community centers, in whatever location they choose, provided it complies with all applicable laws.

What happened to separation of church and state?

Zaphod-1916664……..They don’t need to strongly support the right…They should stay out of it…that’s what separation of church and state is!

If the US government doesn't care about what does or doesn't offend Christian sensibilities (gay marriage, removing all references to Christianity from public view), then why should they care what Muslims in America think? Sounds like a double standard to me.

Something beyond a worthless Republican talking point? YUP! How is it applicable here in the US? It isn't...

It is just a worthless Republican talking point. Here in the US we have US Law, not Sharia law.

It’s not a worthless Republican talking point…it is real and they are trying to bring it here, that’s what makes it applicable…

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2004/04/survey-81-of-detroit-muslims-want-sharia-in-muslim-countries.html

Sharia Law for Non-Muslims - Chapter 1

When you study Islam in Europe today, you are seeing America in 20 years. Why? The actions by Muslims in Europe are based on Sharia law, the same Sharia law that is beginning to be implemented in America today.

Here are current and historical events in America that are driven by Sharia law:
· On September 11, 2001 jihadists attacked and destroyed the World Trade Center. This was in compliance to the laws of jihad found in the Sharia law. The attack was a political action based upon a religious motivation.
· Textbooks in America must be approved by Islamic councils. This is in accordance with Sharia law.
· American employers and schools are met with demands for time and space to do Islamic prayer. These demands are based on Sharia law.
· The American banking system is becoming Islamicized with Sharia financing. Our banking system indulges in Sharia financial law and does not know the rest of Sharia law.
· Universities are asked to close swimming pools and other athletic facilities to be used for Muslim women.
· Hospitals are being sued for not having Sharia compliant treatment.
· No course at the college level uses critical thinking in the history and doctrine of Islam. Under Sharia no aspect of Islam may be criticized.
· Muslim charities give money to jihadists, as per Sharia law.
· Muslim foot-baths are being installed in airport facilities, using tax money. This is in accordance with Sharia law.
· American prisons are a stronghold of proselytizing for Islam.
· Workplaces are being made Islamic worship sites through special rooms and time off to pray. This is in accordance to Sharia law.
· Islamic refugees bring all of their wives for welfare and medical treatment to America. Authorities will not act even when presented with evidence. Polygamy is pure Sharia.
· We are fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to implement constitutions that have the supremacy of Sharia law as their first article.

http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/sharia-law-for-non-muslims-may-20-2010/

Under Sharia law:

· There is no freedom of religion
· There is no freedom of speech
· There is no freedom of thought
· There is no freedom of artistic expression
· There is no freedom of the press
· There is no equality of peoples-a non-Muslim, a Kafir, is never equal to a Muslim
· There are no equal rights for women
· Women can be beaten
· A non-Muslim cannot bear arms
· There is no equal protection under Sharia for different classes of people. Justice is dualistic, with one set of laws for Muslim males and different laws for women and non-Muslims.
· Our Constitution is a man-made document of ignorance, jahiliyah that must submit to Sharia
· There is no democracy, since that means that a non-Muslim is equal to a Muslim
· Non-Muslims are dhimmis, third-class citizens
· There is no Golden Rule
· There is no critical thought
· All governments must be ruled by Sharia law

Unlike common law, Sharia is not interpretive, nor can it be changed

The observance of Sharia law in its entirety is extremely dangerous. The Muslim people know this, their Islamic scholars know this, and people who have studied Sharia law know this. The only people who do not know or otherwise ignore this are the vast majority of our elected officials and our citizenry.

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.2174/pub_detail.asp

Stop American Freedom , Get out of the land of the free for which I fought for if you are against our American freedom. an American is an American not defined by religion

Makkah and Medina don't claim to allow freedom of religion, do they?

It seems as if we should change the constitution to include our new American viewpoint. "freedom of religion... as long as you're not Muslim"

Stella and Ann--Why don't you go buy a burka?

Zaphod-1916664……..They don’t need to strongly support the right…They should stay out of it…that’s what separation of church and state is!

Allowing them to do what they want to do with it, IS staying out of it! Forbidding it would NOT be staying out of it!

All you have shown is an individual offering his opinion... NO BIG DEAL. The governemnt has taken no action one way or the other!

OMG, I'll bet you did not whine with BUSH talked his opinion on Religion...

I believe this is a situation to show the world why this is the greatest country on earth, we accept everyone regardless of which religion you are, what color you are and what economic standing you are. That's the way it is and should always be.

SUPPORT OUR CONSTITUTION!

Bad News. Mayor Bloomberg is a leader who is a coward to the builders of this Mosque.

It is a insult to all of America and to all the families/victims who were killed on Sept. 11, 2001.

Did he ask the remaining families what they thought of this idea.

Apparently, the Extreme Islamic Terrorists have won another "War" against the United States.

They are "in our face" 24/7 now.

Christians are not allowed in Mecca. It is illegal.

This is actually a brilliant idea by the Muslims. Fly planes into the World Trade buildings, murder thousands of inocent people, cost the USA billions of dollars to fix the damages, then build a Victory Mosque in the giant hole that once was the WTC. AND, the idiot politicans will OK this idea!!!

This "Son of a Muslim" president and NY Mayor are probably laughing all the way to the bank. If they allow this to be built they deserve what happens.......

Mecca and Medina are cities in Saudi Arabia, a Nation governed by the Rule of Islam. Simply put they don't tolerate other religions to be practiced there, but in America the land of the Free (or so called except for you bigot racists) religion is free to be practiced every where.

Aisner:

Jews aren't allowed in any Middle East Country except Israel.

Is that what one would call equal justice?. The Israeli's welcome all non-violent citizens from the Middle East into their country, even "pre-screened" Iranians.

Who cares where Christians and Jewish people build places of worship? For that matter, it shouldn't matter where Muslims or people of the Islamic faith, or any other faith worship or build their places of worship as long as they do so peacefully. I understand that this seems like a slap in the face, but it's not religion against religion here. It seemed like a slap in the face to me at first thought too, but when I thought about it I realized my initial reaction was wrong. This is the United States, where all religions are theoretically free to practice their beliefs. Yes, it was founded on Christianity by Christians, but to deny someone freedom of religion in a country based on freedom is hippocricy at its worst. Not all Muslims are extremists, and not all Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, or any other religious group members are extremists either. Until the people worshipping at the Mosque near ground zero become violent or begin planning the demise of the USA, lets not assume they are. I thought Christianity preached love and tolerance. We have no reason to hate Muslims in general, just distrust the extremists. Every group has its crazies. We need to stop being blinded by such hatred of the unfamiliar.

Hawaii, how are they pre-screened? Curious!

This is "political correctness" carried too far. It will be seen in the Muslim world as a tribute to bin Laden and the terrorists who carried out the attacks.

Instead of our being sensitive to the "feelings" of the Muslims, how about them being sensitive to the "feelings" of the relatives of the victims of the attacks?

OBAMA IS A MUSLIM. THERE CAN BE NO REAL DOUBT OF THAT FACT. HE OPENLY REFERS TO HIS "MUSLIM FAITH" AND HE SUPPORTS CONSTRUCTION OF THIS MOSQUE AT GROUND ZERO. VOTE THE LIBERAL BUMS OUT!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCAffMSWSzY&NR=1

I'm sick of folks constantly bringing up Timothy McVeigh to prove we have terrorists too that are Caucasian and from a Christian background. There was one Timothy McVeigh and-- Let's see it was Moslems who did 9/11, Kenya, London, Spain, Philliipines, thousands of attacks on civilians in Israel and so many many more acts of terror.

They stone and brutalize their own women and are so inclusive they hang Christians (recently a teenage converst in Afghanistan). A lot of liberal women support Islam as part of being so tolerant, sensitive and Progressive but Islam is NOT tolerant, sensitive (or they wouldn't build this mosque) nor progressive.

I'd like to send the liberal women who think Islam is a religion of peace to the middle east where they would have their external female genitalia removed and her vagina sewn up except a tiny pencil eraser sized opening for menstrual blood--all without anesthesia of course (women are not to have pleasure--unclean), her husband would use a knife to open her vagina on her wedding night then keep her ever pregnant in spite of her cries that she has had enough children and lock her in her house to do cooking and care for the children. Even her little boys can boss her around. She can't drive a car. She can't learn to read (see the poor little girls whose faces were dissolved in acid by the Taliban when they tried to go to school). She will live in poverty and filth. She can't see a male Dr. and she cannot learn to become a Dr. so she will have no health care. Her teeth will rot out with no dental care and a poor diet. She will die young--often in childbirth and sometimes because of the horrible "remale circumcision" she had with a razor blade cut too deep and didn't allow the vagina to stretch when she is in labor. (And yes this cutting is from the Quaran).

Liberal, Progressive, Sensitive women who are mostly pro-Islam because they are anti-Christianity--I hear Saudi or Somalia calling your name. Or maybe you can go to the mosque at ground zero and check out how the men won't let you worship with them--there will be a place for women. I have a mosque next door to our church. Some have admitted to me they found 9/11 a good thing in the long run. They will never come out against the jihadists folks. Never! We are to be sensitive. They refuse to be sensitive. We are PC and they use it to destroy us.

It’s not a worthless Republican talking point…it is real and they are trying to bring it here, that’s what makes it applicable…

It is what worthless Republicans CLAIM... I call it fear mongering... Telling us what others want, just ignore that it CANNOT replace the freedoms in the constitution!

Hence it is NOTHING more than a WORTHLESS Republican, fear mongering talking point...

"Boycott New York" again.

No, don't boycott New York. That is short sighted.

It isn't New York's fault, only the commission who approved of this. New York is a major trading center, a city filled with wonderful people who need jobs, and money to support their families.

One can boycott the Politicians there, by not electing them again.

Boycott's don't work. Everything is bigger than we are. Common sense.

The problem is u havent seen anything yes sir whatever your riligion was christian or jewish you can build a church or any worshiping place you want to & by the way its our duty to keep this place safe, the middle east was the land of all religions starting with judaism christianity ending with islam we in the middle east live together in peace there was never somthing called sensitivity about a religion or something christians we all have a christian friends & we go to weddings in churches & everything & the kids play together at the mosques & the churches its a fight for oil sir ,where is that mass destruction weapons ?& do u think that bin laden could steal couple air jets & do all this without help from some government i dont think so sir what was done that bin laden played a rule in a play, crash couple jets in couple towers some ppl dies every war has its losses & then american government starts to take the middle east lands & oil starts wars & kill ppl inculding kids & childs sir the problem was caused by a single person his name is bin laden not the middle east & solving the problem with another mistake was never a solution

This gesture would equate with the stupidity of allowing Japan to build a temple beside the WW II Memorial in Hawaii!! What are the elected officials of New York thinking? Are money, power, or something else involved somehow?

Extremists aren't extremists because they are Muslim - they are extremists because they are extremist, those just happen to "claim" to be Muslims. They come in all shapes, sizes, colors and religions. The KKK is white and "claim" to be Christian...so should black people ban all Christian churches in their community? No because they are Christian and those other people just claim to be. I can claim to be a squirrel all I want, but does that make me a squirrel? (the key word is "claim"). Religion has always been a tool used to control the weak minded so the extreme elements are often just being controlled by that tool. NYC has a very large Muslim population who are nothing like the extreme elements that associate themselves with that religion so they should not be denied any rights because of people who really have nothing to do with what they believe.

What sort of bull@!$%# freedom would that be? What about the rights of all those Muslims in NY? There were mosques IN the world trade center, so those people who went there every day have a right just like everyone else to have a place of worship. I have a feeling its the same people who are always on here talking about their rights to do this and rights to do that, want to know say that they should deny the rights of other people.

"Have you forgotten 9-11, and how not a single Muslim anywhere in the world spoke out against the attack on the Twin Towers?"

Actually there were plenty of Muslims that condemned the attack.

http://my-bankruptcy-help.com/?b=September_11,_2001_attacks#Muslim_American_reaction

I dont think they should be able to build a mosque anywhere,religion should be treated like drugs if a handful of people out of millions reacts bad to it should be illegle .I am fairly certain islam and chistianity have killed more people than weed or mushrooms.But on a different subject ,There is probably more proof that george bush was actually behind the bombing and burning of the twin towersand bin laden just an ignorant pawn, equally evil because of his exremist religouse beliefs though.

I'm sick of folks constantly bringing up Timothy McVeigh to prove we have terrorists too that are Caucasian and from a Christian background. There was one Timothy McVeigh and-- Let's see it was Moslems who did 9/11, Kenya, London, Spain, Philliipines, thousands of attacks on civilians in Israel and so many many more acts of terror.

OK, need more examples, look up all those people that fire bombed buildings full of WOMEN, and killed doctors!

Extremeism and Terrorism.... Seems the common thread is... RELIGION!

I personally don't like the idea of the Islamic Cultural Center at that location, but to all you so-called Christians out there misquoting the Koran and taking it out of context, whatever happened to "turn the other cheek."? I guess you're picking and choosing from the Bible to live your phony Christian life (though no New Testament, apparently), just as you do the Koran. What a bunch of hypocrites.

Jim

They won't Jim...Where have you been???...

The USA is based on separation of government and religion...The areas you mention are not...That is why we are so great...We know better than to control government through religion...What of that do you not understand???Everyone has the right to practice their own religion as long as it does not impose or restrict other legitimate religious beliefs...No the KKK can not operate as a religion because it restricts the rights of other citizens (non-Arians)...Islam is a legitimate religion and therefor can build a mosque to worship their God...Why do American Christians have a hard time understanding this???Tthey will tolerate other Christian religions (not all of them all of the time), but do not allow Muslims to practice theirs...

No religion should be allowed in. Islam, Christian, same sides of a bad coin.

I don't care about all the religion only the politics. To build a representation, which this is to many many people, should not be allowed. They could build it a block or two away without being controversial. They are well aware of the implications of this and are doing it anyway. The Gov. has also found many Mosques to be involved in illegal activities so no they are not all about religion. In any event the representation at the 9/11 site should not be allowed and not on a religious basis.

Build it, just respect the wishes of the many. Build it a mile away from ground zero. Muslims, SHOW RESPECT FOR OUR COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As far as I am concerned, the issue is not whether or not a mosque should be built . . . but who is building it, and why?

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is building the mosque, and it is also a documented fact that he has ties with terrorist leaders. Specific terrorist leaders that he looks up to have called for Muslims to use political techniques to over-throw America. His ties with these terrorist groups were brought up in a court case, this is a FACT. Also, Imam wrote a book about Islam in America . . . the title of the book was changed when he brought it to America, because the original title called for an Islamic take-over. (new title: What's right with Islam is what's right for America) In the book, he talks about the need for sharia law in America. In addition, it also describes the steps to achieve sharia law by starting at the "heart" or ground-zero, and branching out like tentacles.

In case any of you are still supportive, this man wants to spread sharia law across the country. Meaning he wants to use this Islamic law to oppress women in this country, the same way they are oppressed in the middle-east.

So the main question is . . . Is this a freedom or religion issue? Or is this a vehicle to take-over America (as he has stated in his book)?

The man who is building the mosque has documented his reasons. It is right there for all to see. How is this even up for debate?

talons-1110240 our country is a nation consider to be a melting pot of cultures from all over the world, that includes Muslims.

I do think that if we are a secular society that protects religious freedom, then it would be a violation of that position to deny the Mosque. We have not acted like a Christian nation for decades now, and if we did claim a national, Christian heritage and ideology, then perhaps we could call it inconsistent with our beliefs. But then synagogues would have to close, buddhist temples would have to close, and so on. However, if there is one tiny suspicion that this mosque and/or it's attendees and staff promote any kind of radical, anti-freedom, anti-anything-other-than-Muslim stance, then it needs to be torn down and the bricks used to make a home for senior citizens, and the land turned into a memorial park for 9/11.

Remember, if Islam allows for killing of "infidels", it certainly allows for lies and deceptions to advance the kingdom of allah.

It is what worthless Republicans CLAIM... I call it fear mongering... Telling us what others want, just ignore that it CANNOT replace the freedoms in the constitution!

Hence it is NOTHING more than a WORTHLESS Republican, fear mongering talking point...

So you deny the facts posted? Careful....Allah is listening!! Speaking of...isnt it time for your call to prayer?

never, even in kurdish areas of iraq i didnt find any REAL christian churches.

WleeH:

Pre screened means doing "deep" background security checks before entering the country..

From page 111 of Feisal Abdul Rauf's book, "What's Right with Islam"

"It also would not be a violation of church-state separation to have a subsidiary entity within the judiciary that employs religious jurists from diverse religious backgrounds to comment on the compliance of certain decisions with their religious views and to provide guidance to their religious communities on how kosher or Shariah compliant these decisions are. ' - Feisal Abdul Rauf

Are you SURE you want this mosque????

Thank you, FedupwithFed,

This is what I am talking about. The man building this mosque wants a Shariah law judiciary within our judicial system. This way they can continue stoning, honor killings, oppression, and every other evil in Shariah law . . . and be protected by our judiciary system.

This is not made up, people. The MAN building this mosque wrote it all in his book, he is showing you what type of person he is and what type of agenda he is pushing. It's not about religious freedom, it's about the REAL reason for building the mosque. Don't be so blind.

I agree Cali, thanks for sharing! I posted same earlier......

why cant they tell us who is funding this mosque? What is the BIG SECRET? What DONT they want us to know?

Have you all not yet figured out that organized religion the bane of civilization?

"In a move likely to cause controversy with church leaders, Imam Feisal said it was Christians who started mass attacks on civilians"....now we know where Zaphod-1916664 gets his talking points.

This is not a question about whether or not Muslims destroyed the World Trade Center. This is not a question about whether or not the United States has freedom of religion. This is not a question about race or religion. This is concerning a matter of respect for those who lost their lives and for those whose lives were affected. Those who caused the catastrophe claimed to be Muslim. Whether or not they were mainstream Muslims, or extremists, it doesn't matter. If they claimed to be McDonald's employees, Disney Land characters, and/or NY Knicks basketball players, then a McDonald's restaurant, a Disney Land Center, and the next NY Knicks basketball Arena should not be allowed to be built there. Build a Monument that the world--all who were affected--would be proud to visit. Don't build a place that may cause some to go over the edge, as a decision is made to reap destruction, suffering, and terrorism in order to make a statement.

What does it matter who builds what and where? This country is governed by special interest groups and minoritys. Senators and congressman are scared sh$tless of the muslim community because with all our military might we found out that we cant win the war in the middle east using our kinder gentler methods of warfare so that we dont hurt any unnecessary people. We have a socialist/muslim president (who isnt even a citizen) running our country in the ground, a war still going on on 3 fronts (Iraq, Afghanistan and Africa) and now this clown is sizing up pakistan to invade them and all the citizens of this counrty will do is bit$h and piss and moan because nobody has any balls. If anything WE are the real enemys of our country...yes the spoiled rotten us citizen who has the attitude of "Im entitled to it" but did nothing to earn it or keep it from being corrupted. Well AMERICA YOU AND YOUR LIBERAL/PROGRESSIVE PHILOSOPHYS CAN SUCK IT NOW YOU ARE BECOMING A VICTIM OF YOUR OWN TOLERANCE AND YOU DESERVE EVERY BIT OF IT.

Wow, I hit Reply and ended up here. Okay. I was hoping to end up in the part with all the Christian-bashing and fear mongering.

Mike, it would be nice if we could all just get along. That famous line spoken by Rodney King has been the source of jokes, serious conversation, wishful thinking...never mind that following the events of those days Mr. King got himself arrested for drunk driving and being a menace to society.

As for your quotation from Karl Marx, do you know why he said that?

Uh, I think Patriot has some anger issues. Not sure about the war in Africa we're supposed to be in. All the rest of it seems kind of true, except maybe the thing about Obama not being a citizen. Not that I like the guy as President. I don't know. I wasn't pissin' and moanin'. Sure seemed like Patriot is.

The builders of the Mosque in NYC have overstepped their boundaries.

Why can't our elected officials use the word NO. They easily tell all the Americans "no, we don't listen to our own citizens" for all that has happened in the past 2 years.

The Mosque is the latest recent caper. I can't even remember why Shirley Sherrod was in the news.

Everything is moving too fast in this country as far as passing laws, and permits to repulsive construction of "enemy" buildings.

Don't those who govern have any "pride" or compassion.

Just to enlighten you muslims are not allowed to build mosques in vetican city are they!! Now its not their fault if Vetican is not as big a thing as Mecca and Medina.

Hope this answers your question.

Just to enlighten you muslims are not allowed to build mosques in vetican city are they!! Now its not their fault if Vetican is not as big a thing as Mecca and Medina.

Hope this answers your question.

Zaphod-1916664….Yea, HOW DARE I QUOTE FROM THE BIBLE, to prove my point about the bible. Now where was it that you actually refuted anything I said or any point I made? I don't see it. All I see is your outrage that I quoted the bible, like others quoted the koran, to prove EVIL. How is one EVIL, and the other not, if they both say the same things?

Since you are willing to read the Bible, I suggest you turn to Revelations and see how it ends

Again, why would the Muslims do this? Why must they build the mosque so close to where 3000 Americans were slaughtered by Muslims? This only makes sense if you are trying to prove the point that 9/11 was a victory for Islam. If American Muslims cared at all about improving the image of Islam in the US they would know that this is not the way to go about it.

So you deny the facts posted?

I deny that Sharia law is an issue... 100%

Sharia law CANNOT take the place of the Constitution, and here in America, Sharia law CANNOT take away the freedoms reserved for American citizens in the Constitution.

YOU cannot refute THAT FACT...

As long as you FAIL to refute it, then you are just speading fear and WORTHLESS RNC propaganda.

How UnAmerican of you... You should love and respect our constitution, not sharia law.

Since you are willing to read the Bible, I suggest you turn to Revelations and see how it ends

/YAWN

Do you think ANYTHING you can do will prevent it? It is the word and the will of GOD! Right?

Perhaps it is just a story written by MAN, trying to use FEAR to control the masses...

"In a move likely to cause controversy with church leaders, Imam Feisal said it was Christians who started mass attacks on civilians"....now we know where Zaphod-1916664 gets his talking points.

Nice try, but incorrect.. As I never said who started anything, and I've noticed you have not challenged ANYTHING I've said on a factual level. This time, try to stick to things I've actually said, no more lame straw man argument where you say what I've said, based on your own imagination, and then attack what YOU say was said, not what I actually said.

Is that what passes for intellect in your family?

There is no legitimate reason to oppose the building of this mosque other than racial and religious intolerance. PERIOD.

Actually Fed is making a much better argument than you. Why do you confuse what GOVERNMENTS do with what RELIGIONS do? Choose one or the other to complain about. What the US Government does has nothing to do with the Christian religious groups in America. People in US can vote and write letters to representatives but a religion does not run the government nor is any war that the US is participating in based on a religious fundament.

but a religion does not run the government nor is any war that the US is participating in based on a religious fundament.

So GOD did not talk to Bush and tell him to invade Iraq? His religion did not participate in that decision at all? Funny, I posted links to articles that claim Bush DID say that GOD told him to invade Iraq. So his religion, NOT THE AVAILABLE FACTS, was the deciding factor of the invasion. HE BELIEVED that they had WMD's, and just tried to invent evidence to fit his beliefs.

Religion needs people to IGNORE facts, and IMHO, has NO PLACE in deciding national policy.

FACT is, ONLY the CIC can order troops into combat

FACT is, there was evidence to the contray of the Presidents BELIEF, enough for solid reasonable doubt.

FACT is, Bush went with his BELIEF, and ignored FACTS.

FACT is, tens of thousands have died as a result. and I hope each and every one of those souls get to be heard when Bush faces his judgement day.

I agree, a religion does not run America.... but that does not make anything I've said inaccurate, as I never claimed that a religion did run America.

That is what is called a 'strawman' argument. Were you claim something like "A religion does not run America" and attack that premise, even thou no one said it did. It gives the illusion of you being right about something, but truth is, it shows how weak your argument is.

Nice try, but Saddam even admitted he LEAD everyone to believe he had WMD...read his testimony

(CBS) That June 2000 speech was about weapons of mass destruction. In talking casually about that speech, Saddam began to tell the story of his weapons. It was a breakthrough that had taken five months.

"Oh, you couldn't imagine the excitement that I was feeling at that point," Piro remembers.

"And what did he tell you about how his weapons of mass destruction had been destroyed?" Pelley asks.

*****"It was very important for him to project that because that was what kept him, in his mind, in power. That capability kept the Iranians away. It kept them from reinvading Iraq," Piro says.*****

Before his wars with America, Saddam had fought a ruinous eight year war with Iran and it was Iran he still feared the most.

*****"He believed that he couldn't survive without the perception that he had weapons of mass destruction?" Pelley asks.*****

"Absolutely," Piro says.

*****"As the U.S. marched toward war and we began massing troops on his border, why didn't he stop it then? And say, 'Look, I have no weapons of mass destruction.' I mean, how could he have wanted his country to be invaded?" Pelley asks.*****

*****"He didn't. But he told me he initially miscalculated President Bush. And President Bush's intentions. He thought the United States would retaliate with the same type of attack as we did in 1998 under Operation Desert Fox. Which was a four-day aerial attack. So you expected that initially," Piro says.*****

Piro says Saddam expected some kind of an air campaign and that he could he survive that. "He survived that once. And then he was willing to accept that type of attack. That type of damage," he says.

"Saddam didn't believe that the United States would invade," Pelley remarks.

"Not initially, no," Piro says.

"Once it was clear to him that there was going to be an invasion of the country. I mean, did he actually believe that his armies could win?" Pelley asks.

"No," Piro says. "What he had asked of his military leaders and senior government officials was to give him two weeks. And at that point it would go into what he called the secret war."

"The secret war. What did he mean?" Pelley asks.

"Going from a conventional to an unconventional war," Piro says.

"So the insurgency was part of his plan from the very beginning," Pelley remarks.

"Well, he would like to take credit for the insurgency," Piro says.

Central to that insurgency were Saddam’s sons, that is, before they were killed by U.S. forces.

Asked how Saddam reacted to the deaths of his two sons, Uday and Qusay, Piro says, "I was surprised. He didn't show any remorse. He told me that he was, of course, proud of his sons. They died believing, or fighting, for what they believed."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494_page4.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

*****(CBS) In fact, Piro says Saddam intended to produce weapons of mass destruction again, some day. "The folks that he needed to reconstitute his program are still there," Piro says.*****

"Yes," Piro says.

*****"What weapons of mass destruction did he intend to pursue again once he had the opportunity?" Pelley asks.*****

"Yes," Piro says.*****

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494_page6.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Thanks Pats!

You said that Christianity was dropping bombs in Iraq and it is governments that are doing that. So the strawman reference is on your side not mine. So do you believe that God is talking to Obama since we are still at war and it seems that wars cannot be waged without a Deity advising?

For what it's worth, as someone who lives and works in NYC, and whose social circles all run exclusively in NYC, no one here has a problem with this Mosque/ Community Center. Should be good for the neighborhood.

And, some of us lost friends and families on 9/11, and yea: we still feel this way.

So the real question is….WHY do the Muslims require the site near the world trade center massacre?

They preach that WE are intolerant, yet where is their tolerance of the feelings of the victims families?

There are already several mosques in NYC, so why this site? This refutes the idea that Americans are against them having a mosque or practicing their religion. If they are truly interested in bringing peace and unity then why antagonize?

Could it be that they WANT to look down over the site to celebrate their morbid victory?

Why would they chose the date 9/11/11 to open it? Another celebration? 10 years to the date?

They blame Americans against the Mosque as hateful and intolerant yet their religion is the MOST intolerant.

How far are they willing to push the freedom of the first amendment?

Why won't they disclose WHO is funding the mosque? What’s the big secret?

What is the significance of the name CORDOBA? Could it have to do with celebrating Muslim domination over the west thinking that no one would figure it out? If so, then why change it to Park 51?

We will never forget that thousands of Palestinian Authority Muslims celebrated the murders of our 3,000 fellow Americans. There were also reports of Muslims celebrating in NYC as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTYoV-_GlNs

This is what you want to celebrate? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6yFLYU1jM0&feature=fvw

Muslims are allowed, no, they are commanded, to lie. This is called "Taqiyya." Taqiyya can be used in interaction with any non-Muslim so long as it furthers the interest of Islam. According to Islam Watch, "The word 'Taqiyya' literally means: 'Concealing, precaution, guarding.' It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralizing any criticism of Islam or Muslims."

Who is Faisel Rauf?

"I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened," said Rauf on 60 minutes, just weeks after 9-11. REALLY???

The man behind the mosque at Ground Zero, Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf, comes from a long line of Imams. The problem is, to what point does that line lead back?

According to an article that was published in the Sydney Morning Herald, Imam Rauf stated, "The U.S. and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end." Published on March 21, 2004, the article quoted the Imam from New York. "Speaking from his New York mosque, Imam Feisal said the West had to understand the terrorists' point of view." Rauf further stated, "The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets."

"The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians…" Really? Wow, glad that was cleared up. So where did that stack of dead bodies (from the 15,297 terrorist attacks perpetrated in the name of Jihad and Islam since 9/11) come from?

"The West had to understand the terrorists' point of view." Actually, I do understand their point of view. I have read the Koran, the Hadith and the Sira. This so-called "religion of peace" is nothing of the sort. I think the founder of CAIR (the Council of American-Islamic Relations), Omar Ahmad, summed it up best when he said, "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth." This statement has been widely reported over the years, but it appears Mr. Rauf is counting on the ignorance of many people to win this argument. Ahmad's statement reflects nothing more than a fervent wish for domination, pure and simple.

Imam Rauf was born in Kuwait in 1948 after his parents fled (or were thrown out, depending on which report you read) from Egypt. His father, Dr. Muhammad Abdul Rauf, was a known member of the Muslim Brotherhood which is why some say he was thrown out of Egypt in 1948. The Muslim Brotherhood, for those of you who don't know, was founded in 1928, only four years after the Ottoman Empire ended. It is the oldest terrorist organization in the world and has over 70 different offshoots which include al Qaeda, Hamas and Hezbollah, just to name a few. Interestingly, the Muslim Brotherhood is not only banned here in the U.S., but it was banned in Egypt as well.

People need to know history in order to understand Islam and what they are really out to achieve. At its height, the Islamic Empire covered more of the earth than the Roman Empire. The Ottoman Empire ended in 1924 and the Muslim Brotherhood came about only four years later. This is no coincidence; it was established to bring back the world domination that Islam once had. Aside from Islam conquering a huge part of the world, Islam also conquered most of Spain in the year 711 from Tariq ibn Zayid's invasion and held it through 1248; it controlled parts of Spain until its full liberation in 1492. Spain was renamed Andalusia. So why is this of importance?

The name of the organization planning the mosque is the "Cordoba Initiative," and this name itself is a full affront to Americans. Cordoba was the seat of the Islamic Caliphate that ruled Spain and the name is often used today by Islamic militants when recalling the glory of the Islamic Empire from the years when they occupied Spain.

Brigitte Gabriel, the founder of ACT for America said "Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has said publicly that the September 11th attack was not perpetrated by Muslims. He said publicly on CNN that the United States was an accessory to the crime and that Osama bin Laden was made in the United States."

Brigitte Gabriel has also referred to CAIR as the "arm of Hamas in America." CAIR was named an "unindicted co-conspirator" along with the Islamic Society of North America, and the North American Islamic Trust, in connection with the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development trial. Between July and September 2007, prosecutors in the terrorism case against the Holy Land Foundation (HLF) and its top officials released a multitude of exhibits and documents that provided extraordinary understanding into the web of connections tying together a handful of Hamas front groups that operated on American soil throughout the 1990s and beyond, serving as a central piece in the Muslim Brotherhood's U.S. network.

CAIR was one of the "unindicted co-conspirators" in U.S. v. Holy Land Foundation. So why is Imam Rauf standing with Sultan Muhammad, the communications coordinator for the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), in a picture? What are his connections to CAIR or for that matter the Muslim Brotherhood? Is he following in his father's sandals?

Muslims are allowed, no, they are commanded, to lie. This is called "Taqiyya." Taqiyya can be used in interaction with any non-Muslim so long as it furthers the interest of Islam. According to Islam Watch, "The word 'Taqiyya' literally means: 'Concealing, precaution, guarding.' It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralizing any criticism of Islam or Muslims."

The website also explains, "Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a 'religion of peace'. A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his heart."

Is Imam Rauf just practicing Taqiyya? Is the mosque planned at Ground Zero nothing more than another mosque built out of the quest for global domination? Muslims have been destroying houses of worship built by every other faith since the rise of the Islamic Empire. The world over, Islam has ransacked tens of thousands of churches, synagogues, monasteries and holy archaeological sites, not to mention Buddhist, Sikh, Zoroastrian, Hindu temples and others. After this occurs, they build a mosque over it and claim it in the name of Allah. Domination, pure and simple.

Now, call it what you want – terrorists, radical Islamic extremists, manmade catastrophes, insert your favorite politically correct term here – destroyed the Twin Towers and murdered 3,000 people on 9/11. They were Jihadists...period. Are we going to let them build a mosque 600 feet from where the towers once stood?

http://www.weeklyblitz.net/732/the-apple-doesnt-fall-far

Nice try, but Saddam even admitted he LEAD everyone to believe he had WMD...read his testimony

GLAD to see you admit that Saddam was smarter than BUSH!

BUSH: Who has WMD's out there?

China: NO WMD's here in Korea!

Korea: No WMD's here

Iran: No WMD's here!

Iraq: WE HAVE WMD'S!

Bush: ATTACK! They have WMD'S!!!!

ROTFLMAO!

Thanks for useing information from the CLINTON era in a SAD attempt to justify actions in 2003! What they knew THEN... just to attempt to justify what you want to do today. IGNORe the UN Weapons inspectors on the ground... IGNORE the 2002 NIE on Iraq... HE SAID THEY HAVE WMD'S! Clinton said it too!

ROTFLMAO!

FACT is that the Iraq invasion was a WASTE of resources, and distracted us from our just mission of attacking those that attacked us on 9/11. I think your Republicans have intention and ability CONFUSED!

Here is something for you to chew on:

FACT: in 1991 we invaded Iraq [I was there] and we had over 500,000 troops on the ground! But we did not go to Baghdad...

Here is why:

Dick Cheney in a post-mortem on the first Gulf War at the Soref Symposium, 4/29/1991:

I think that the proposition of going to Baghdad is also fallacious. I think if we were going to remove Saddam Hussein we would have had to go all the way to Baghdad, we would have to commit a lot of force because I do not believe he would wait in the Presidential Palace for us to arrive. I think we'd have had to hunt him down. And once we'd done that and we'd gotten rid of Saddam Hussein and his government, then we'd have had to put another government in its place.

What kind of government? Should it be a Sunni government or Shi'i government or a Kurdish government or Ba'athist regime? Or maybe we want to bring in some of the Islamic fundamentalists? How long would we have had to stay in Baghdad to keep that government in place? What would happen to the government once U.S. forces withdrew? How many casualties should the United States accept in that effort to try to create clarity and stability in a situation that is inherently unstable?

I think it is vitally important for a President to know when to use military force. I think it is also very important for him to know when not to commit U.S. military force. And it's my view that the President got it right both times, that it would have been a mistake for us to get bogged down in the quagmire inside Iraq.

WOA! Step back! 500,000 was not enough to prevent a quagmire!

So why did we invade in 2003 with 160,000?

What changed?

Why were 160,000 supposedly able to do what 500,000 could not?

Did the Republicans just not care about the quagmire? Decided the quagmire was... profitable for big oil? Perhaps they KNEW that Iraq no longer had WMD's, and 160,000 might be enought to accomplish the mission now?

You said that Christianity was dropping bombs in Iraq

No I didn't... You have some SERIOUS issues with honesty...Learn to read...

Are you trying to deny that George Bush is a Chrisitian, or are you just trying to avoid the sterotype of few bad = all bad, that you are using on Muslims?

Good call Jim! It is always for US /United States citizens to take the hit to take the $hit. We have to understand everyone else and no matter what we do it is never enough!

so after all this rhetoric...you still have not answered the question on the mosque in NYC. Am I to believe that we need it because we went to war in Iraq? Or that you feel Christians have killed people so you deserve a mosque near ground zero?

I think I have MORE than proved MY point on what your Imam is REALLY all about.

Thank you for posting that bit of information Zaphod (nice name btw, LoL). I wish I could find the article about further reasons why NOT to invade Iraq that was written by Bush, Sr. prior to him becoming elected president. It would be a real eye-opener to many of the trolls on this forum.

so after all this rhetoric...you still have not answered the question on the mosque in NYC. Am I to believe that we need it because we went to war in Iraq? Or that you feel Christians have killed people so you deserve a mosque near ground zero?

I don't think we need it at all.... Then again, I've never seen the NEED for any religion. But thanks for trying to forse YOUR opinions onto others with questions like that. It shows your true honesty, or lack there of.

I think I have MORE than proved MY point on what your Imam is REALLY all about

The ONLY think you have proven, is your own bigotry and intolerance.

Good call Jim! It is always for US /United States citizens to take the hit to take the $hit. We have to understand everyone else and no matter what we do it is never enough!

It is called the US Constitution... Love it, or feel free to leave at your leisure.

Now, call it what you want – terrorists, radical Islamic extremists, manmade catastrophes, insert your favorite politically correct term here – destroyed the Twin Towers and murdered 3,000 people on 9/11. They were Jihadists...period. Are we going to let them build a mosque 600 feet from where the towers once stood?

Here is an example of fed idea of honesty... Because the twin towers were taken out by Jihadists, and jihadists are Muslims, and Muslims worship in mosques, then the mosque being built near ground zero MUST be being build by the same jihadists!

Yet when you try to show him how WRONG that logic is by applying the same standard to chrisitians, he switchs to personal attacks..

"Republican hypocritical Values"

@ Zaphod- I do read-English.

Zaphod-in reference to statement that " Christians dont actually stone people to death, or kidnap and behead them, or kill schools full of girls for learning how to write."

His answer-"Dead is DEAD... what difference does the HOW make?You think the bombs we dropped on Iraq only killed terrorists? ROTFLMAO!!!!"

So who exactly did you mean to say dropped the bombs? Christianity or Gov?

@FedupwithFed -I think that Zaphod is not used to the English language or a very young person. His statements are full of fervor but little fact. And he intermingles his subjects.

I would think if Bloomberg is so adamant about having this “mosque” located at this spot he should be OK with the adjoining properties hosting a barbeque restaurant and strip club and a Salvation Army soup kitchen for the homeless. How about an adult book store?

We could relocate the Hells Angels Manhattan club house from mid-town as well.

None of this would happen since it would be considered insensitive to the Muslims but insensitivity on the part of the Muslims is OK.

AFAIK, none of those other persons or entities has bought any of the property around that area? Do the Hells Angels even have members who aren't in prison for drug charges or ex-convicts? And again, IF YOU PEOPLE WANT TO PUT WHATEVER YOU WANT IN THE PLACE OF THE MOSQUE GET YOUR MONEY UP AND GO BUY THEM OUT! THEY BOUGHT THE LAND! YOU CAN PUT WHATEVER YOU WANT RIGHT NEXT TO THE MOSQUE IF YOU GO AND BUY IT! Stop whining about what someone has bought already. Your tax dollars didn't by the land, you didn't contribute to the payment at all, so either buy them out or be quiet.

ok, so now that California reversed Proposition 8, do you think Sharia Law will uphold this decision? Go ahead liberals....you support both, yet they contradict each other. Chose your battles wisely!

http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE6740KC20100805

US unveils charges against 3 for aiding al Shabaab

Who Is Al-Shabab?

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/12/the-rise-of-al-shabab.html

'Ground Zero mosque' Imam thanks U.S. Jews for support

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/ground-zero-mosque-imam-thanks-u-s-jews-for-support-1.305883?localLinksEnabled=false

Are you kidding me?

The Treatment of Jews in Arab/Islamic Countries

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf15.html

WAKE UP!!

So who exactly did you mean to say dropped the bombs? Christianity or Gov?

The Governemnt, following the orders of? A CHRISTIAN! Don't you know, that if one is BAD they ALL ARE BAD! That is the standard being used here, is it not? Are you trying to argue that a religion should not be judged as a whole based on the actions of an idiot?

@FedupwithFed -I think that Zaphod is not used to the English language or a very young person. His statements are full of fervor but little fact. And he intermingles his subjects.

Funny, you CLAIM I use little FACT, yet you offer no FACT base challenges to anything I've said! You use innuendo and your opinion, but no fact base challenges to what I've said.... I've even seen you attempt to put words in my mouth, but you do not seem able to step up to the plate to challenge what I've actuallt said!.... Now what does that say about you?

Are you a faithful Muslim Zaphod? Do you follow the Koran to the letter? Or do you selectively choose what to follow? Oh wait it also teaches you to lie to us infidels as well doesn't it?

http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

Are you a faithful Muslim Zaphod?

no

Do you follow the Koran to the letter? Or do you selectively choose what to follow? Oh wait it also teaches you to lie to us infidels as well doesn't it?

I see these are all based on an assumption from the first question...

I'm not a Muslim... I'm a Southern Baptist.

There is a reason you have to ASSUME and cannot deal with FACTS...

You are weak... in mind and faith.... Which is why you are forced to lean on innuendo and assumptions, it is all that you have.

Are you just a knucklehead Zaphod? Weak minded could also be not standing up for your country or your fellow Americans against an enemy that would cut your head off, your wifes head off, your kids heads off....... No to the mosque! Burn it down if it ever gets built!

Like I said the Koran also teaches its followers to lie to infidels. Go figure.

The creation of an American Islam, Abdul Rauf believes, can help modernize Islam globally and in the process ease the strains between his adopted country and his faith.

Are you just a knucklehead Zaphod? Weak minded could also be not standing up for your country or your fellow Americans against an enemy that would cut your head off, your wifes head off, your kids heads off.......

And those that would fire bomb buildings full of women.. and shoot doctors...

I've served my country... I'm not a chicken hawk like Bush and the Republicans. I've put my money where my mouth is, and put my ass onthe line. I do not have to prove my worth to the likes of you.

No to the mosque! Burn it down if it ever gets built!

My oath was to the US Constitution... Not a religion, or a political party. To the LAW of the LAND.

YOU can advocate going against american LAW and the Constitution if you want, but that would make YOU as bad as THEM.

Like I said the Koran also teaches its followers to lie to infidels. Go figure.

Which would explain why you cannot deal with anything on a factual level, and why you HAVE to resort to innuendo...

I love how your reply to my claim that you have to rely on innuendo, is MORE innuendo.. It proves my point nicely.

Zap,

Your forgetting that your rights under the constitution can be suspended during war time. And to my recollection, we are at war.

Zaphod…..I'm not a Muslim... I'm a Southern Baptist.

Yeah RIGHT!!! Your words reveal a different light….

Have any of you 'Christians' burned a witch today?

Have any of you 'Christians' killed a homo today?

Have any of you anti abortion Chrisitans killed yourself today?

Have any of you good 'Christians' killed your own kids today?

Have any of you good 'Chrisitians' killed women for NOT being virgins on their wedding night?

As a southern Baptist, you SHOULD be able to spell Christian….just sayin’

KORAN commands to kill infidels…indeed it does! But so does the bible... Hypocrite...

Amazing what they tolerate from their own teachings, but when the same lesson is given to others about them, THEY FREAK!

You can't even bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia….Sounds like a GREAT argument in favor of the seperation of church and state to me!

No look up the definition of kidnapping, then look at what the government does called... Renditions. Or holding people we capture, INDEFINITELY, with no trial or chance to defend themselves.

Since you are willing to read the Bible, I suggest you turn to Revelations and see how it ends

/YAWN Do you think ANYTHING you can do will prevent it? It is the word and the will of GOD! Right?

Perhaps it is just a story written by MAN, trying to use FEAR to control the masses...

GLAD to see you admit that Saddam was smarter than BUSH!

I've never seen the NEED for any religion.

It’s time for your call to prayer. A Muslim who denies terrorism as intrinsic to Islam is guilty of apostasy and, according to O8.2, should be killed.

Muslims are allowed, no, they are commanded, to lie. This is called "Taqiyya." Taqiyya can be used in interaction with any non-Muslim so long as it furthers the interest of Islam. According to Islam Watch, "The word 'Taqiyya' literally means: 'Concealing, precaution, guarding.' It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralizing any criticism of Islam or Muslims."

Innuendo?

Isn't that an Italian suppository...??

Maybe you muslums should try some of those!!

LOL Innuendo?...As FedupwithFed demonstrated so well. Why didn't you say "us Christians?" instead of "you Christians?" Has the cock crowed thrice?

Then of course these little pearls.

I've never seen the NEED for any religion.

Were you lying then?

I'm not a Muslim... I'm a Southern Baptist.

Or are you lying now?

That really was a little to easy.

Tolerance, respect and rights do not work unless they are reciprocal. Islam does not reciprocate. Muslims are commanded to fight us. Our blood and property are not sacred to them and we have no rights until we join them in slavery to Allah. Do you understand why Islam can not be tolerated?

http://islamexposed.blogspot.com/

Zap,

Your forgetting that your rights under the constitution can be suspended during war time. And to my recollection, we are at war.

Hate to burst your bubble... but congress never declared war....

and if your historical reference was to Lincoln suspending habeas corpus, that was found unconstitutional.

Yeah RIGHT!!! Your words reveal a different light….

A light that you cannot seem to penetrate with your lies... I still do not see a fact based challenge to ANYTHING I've said. If you cannot challenge me on the facts, then what exactly, are your complaints about what I've said? You do not like people telling the truth?

Most liars don't....

Then of course these little pearls.

I've never seen the NEED for any religion.

Were you lying then?

I'm not a Muslim... I'm a Southern Baptist.

Or are you lying now?

Neither... The statements are not mutually exclusive. To this day, I've never seen a NEED for religion. That does not mean I do not go to church every Sunday because I WANT to.

See, even your questions, are lies. You have been fed lies for so long, I doubt you have the ability to tell the truth from a lie anymore.

LOL Innuendo?...As FedupwithFed demonstrated so well. Why didn't you say "us Christians?" instead of "you Christians?" Has the cock crowed thrice?

Because some of us christians believe in the truth, not politics and lies... I side with the truth, you do not seem to even know what the meaning of that word is.

Prove me wrong... show where something I've said is wrong, or even inaccurate...

As a southern Baptist, you SHOULD be able to spell Christian….just sayin’

So you are sayin that a typo proves your point?

/snicker

ROTFLMAO!!!!

OK, lets flip that logic to see if it is still functional

Muslims are allowed, no, they are commanded, to lie. This is called "Taqiyya."

You must be a Muslin, you know a lot about it, and always spell it correctly!

Now, lets apply some more of your 'logic'

Muslim = terrorists!

So using YOUR logic, I've proved you are a Muslim terrorist!

Amazing...

I've never seen the NEED for any religion.

I also LOVE how you want to use that as proof that I'm not a southrn baptist, and then ignore it when claiming I'm a Muslim...

LOL So excuses are all that you have. Sorry buddy you exposed yourself, your done. Not that you were ever taken seriously in the first place. I was wondering when that whole transparency thingy was going to come into play. Thanks for demonstrating so effectively.

There will be a huge reaction on the part of some New Yorkers and others who are disgusted with this decision....There will be protests and potentially attacks on the building..ie vandalism, arson, etc...it will happen...

There will be protests and potentially attacks on the building..ie vandalism, arson, etc...it will happen...

I agree... but it speaks to the ethics and values of those doing the attacks...

Even Bush said Muslim extremeists hate us because of our freedoms...

Now who is siding with the terrorists and fighting against American constitutional freedoms?

SARAH PALIN and the the Tea baggers! Why do they hate the American Constitution and freedom and justice for ALL?

they dont---they hate the abuse of it by jacka**es like you and yours

WE are a Democracy, They are NOT. We cannot compare ourselves to them. WE must be better than them. As Jesus said: "If someone hits you in the right cheek, turn the other way". That is the example of Christianity we need to show, not hatres, bigotry, and intolerance.

they dont---they hate the abuse of it by jacka**es like you and yours

Ahh yea, how DARE we use our constitutional freedoms to speak the truth!

You did notice that you did not bother to offer a single factual challenge to anything that was said... Right?

The constitution I took an oath to defend did not limit it's freedoms and rights to those that agree with me... How is it an 'abuse' if you use the freedoms to tell the truth? IF there is an ABUSE here, it is to use the constitutional freedoms to side AGAINST the US Constitution, if you ask my opinion.

"well established beliefs" What about beliefs like eating other people will give the attributes of the person they ate? Or sacrificing people to their god will cause healthy crops... hmmm why should people be converted from those beliefs?? Lunatic missionaries! what were they thinking?? We should just leave the savage world alone in their misery. Don't let Avatar deceive you into thinking all primitives were all noble. (not that few "missionaries" weren't corrupt/confused, but don't paint the majority with the same brush)

No JT, the lunatics of Christianity are too busy bombing abortion clinics and killing medical personnel who work in them these days. But as others have already said, look back at the history of the Christian religion through the ages and you will find atrocities equal to, if not worse than the 9/11 attacks.

Most religious philosophies teach peace and love, but the reality is that many of their followers use their religion as a cover for practicing their hatred toward others who don't think as they do. That goes for ALL religions, including Christianity.

"Or sacrificing people to their god will cause healthy crops..."

So by "convert" you mean rape and pillage, steal a civilizations' worth of gold, and wipe the rest out with disease? I suppose those of us with European ancestry are quite good at that.

On a more reasonable note...Savage or not, why do we accept the widespread expansion of our religion but not that of a "competitor"? This clearly goes against the freedom of religion. Embrace one, shun the others.

Can't we all just get along?

+1

I do not understand why it is so hard to practice this simple concept. Even Christians are supposed to follow the "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you," but few do.

I suppose it is pointless to say that a founding principle of this country is freedom of religion, yes, even the Muslim religion. It would be pointless to point out that there are countless 'Christian' atrocities in many countries around the world. There are some two billion Muslims in the world and 19 of them did a very horrible thing. Yet, all two billion Muslims are being made to pay for this one atrocity. Let's not let anything get in the way of our unmitigated anger.

If "religion is the opiate of the masses", is atheism the opiate of the cynical fool who acknowledges nothing higher than himself?

Be that as it may, you're right on one thing: can't we all just get along? Not only is our ability to do that the greatest strength of the U.S., it's especially true of New York City...my home town, by the way. Everybody from every corner of the earth lives there, and somehow they do "just get along" -- maybe not in warm fuzzy friendship, maybe with an upraised finger instead of a welcoming hand, but they manage. It's how NYC recovered from 9/11, and there's no reason to stop now.

We're bigger and better than this, people.

The Catholic Church has repeatedly condemned pedophilia, with convicted priests removed (defrocked) from the priesthood. Granted, some slipped through the cracks over the years and there is suspicion of some being moved to avoid conflicts.

Wow, do YOU need to do some research. It's a whole lot more than a "suspicion" that priests were "moved to avoid conflicts" - it's irrefutable and proven fact. And this was not just a few priests, but many - not to mention that often there were SEVERAL moves, even though the bishops involved must have known the priest would continue to molest children. As far as convicted priests being defrocked - this almost never happens, because the Church has protected priests at the expense of children. When the current Pope was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, he convinced Pope John Paul II to let his office handle all cases of priestly pedophilia, so that they would never be reported to the police. It isn't a matter of priests "slipping through the cracks" - it is an active cover-up by the church hierarchy. I'm sure that most lay Catholics do NOT condone these actions - that doesn't mean they didn't happen.

I have come to the conclusion there are no moderate muslims. The so called moderates have not and will not absolutely condemn the terrorist acts by the extremist and they also will not condemn the extremist groups. Until this happens there are no moderate muslims.

If/when this mosque is built there should be a Cross and Star of David each at least 25 feet tall built facing each entrance and exit and lighted 24/7/365.

Laws should be equally applied to all. I wonder about the agenda of some politicians. Govern according to law or according to personal emotions. In palin's case we now know the answer. Moma Bear with lipstick.

Key word is "jihadist", which doesn't represent the Muslim population.

Ban all religions. Religious extremists come in all flavors. When you give up your own judgement and trust in god - or more likely the leader of one of his fan clubs - you can be told to do anything.

As my mom said as she dropped me off at the Lutheran High School - "Think for yourself".

http://www.investigativeproject.org/profile/113

Mike, Islamic religion and quite a few others have commited the same atrocities as Christ followers, unfortunately theres bad apples in every bunch, tho seems to me like you have a personal vendetta. How miserable you must be

There is not a religion on this planet that is the age of Islam, Christianity, Judiasim, Hindi, et al, that at some point in it's history killed in the name of their dogma. In fact the Bible advocates killing anyone who questions the faith of a believer. Unfortunately, almost every time this has happened, the religion was used by someone seeking wealth and power to incite the masses. If you don't believe that religious ferver was used by the Bush administration, I suggest you read some of the postings on this board.

Don't think Christains are capable of it? Catholics and Protestants are at it again in Northern Ireland, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people who have died since we invaded Iraq.

These are just contemporary examples, history is littered with the bodies of people who were killed in the name of dogma (calling falsely on the name of a god).

In a day when we have weapons of mass destruction, dogmatic faith will destroy us.

"Think for yourself"

You're a genius, SRS. This really is the answer to all of our problems...Unfortunately, most of the population is incapable of doing so.

Regardless, that is quite a powerful statement.

And Mike, WTF are you talking about? Who do I have a vendetta against? That's news to me. I'm actually feeling quite happy this morning!

Mike,

Stop burying your head in the sand. Muslim terrorists don't want to "just get along." They have been indoctrinated to "kill every infidel." "Infidel" to terrorists means "Non-Muslims", especially "Christians" and primarily "Americans". You can't reason or negotiate with this type of insanity. Sooner or later, there will be another American Attack or World War; and, once again Faith will be at the root of this action.

9/11 accomplished two things for the terrorists. (a) it proved they could reach and attack American soil. (b) It showed the world even a small band of terrorists from around the world, could strike at the American Heart-its people! Anyone who denies these facts are just fools, living in a "fairy tale" world. Not everyone wants to stand around holding hands and sing Kumbia.(that's a Democrat Fairy Tale).

Which is why each American should be responsible for protecting their own families and property. I am no advocating, survival zealism. However, in the case of a real national disaster or attack, police and military can't be everywhere. I am of the belief, the best defense is a strong offense. Work for a better future, but, be smart enough to plan for the worst.

In answer to the mosque question at Ground Zero. No, a Mosque should not be built. Muslims weren't the only 'religious" people that died. A Mosque would be a daily reminder of the fanatic religious terrorists that killed and basically, got away with it.

VICKI

Honestly Shove your opinions of the Catholic church! Your diatribe was that of a thinly veiled BIGOT!

Every church has this problem just not as much funds as the catholic church. Who would you rather sue. Rich people with millions OR poor people with nothing, Give me a break!

If every church has this problem - and to this extent - why aren't there hundreds of people coming forward to talk about abuse by clergy from other religions? And why do you think it's being a bigot to state FACTS - facts that a little simple research on your part would show to be true?

Dave ~

"well established beliefs" What about beliefs like eating other people will give the attributes of the person they ate? Or sacrificing people to their god will cause healthy crops...

You are only referencing a very small part of the population that were rather brutally "converted" by Christians & "missionaries".

The vast majority of native americans were neither cannibals nor did they sacrifice people to their gods.

And the Japanese were perfectly "civilized" without us coming in to "civilize" them.

It's about time people realize that most expansion done in the name of Christianity was done due to greed, not religion. These "missionaries" were not interested in these peoples' souls, just their land.

I would find it hard to believe that I could go to say...Saudi Arabia...and build a Christian Church and rec center a few doors down from a Muslim sacred site, yet New York is allowing a Muslim Mosque to go just a few doors down from an American sacred site that became one because of people who followed the same religion? And I am not supposed to see this as some sort of slap in the face?

Although I don't condone it, one has got to expect that someone is going to do something to bring down that Mosque. Someone who lost family or friends in 9/11. Do we really need to see another tragedy in NYC?

What makes America great is that we allow all religions. The fact that there is no Church in Mecca only further sets us apart.

While Israel builds a fence and puts the people who have lived there for thousands of years into small pockets of land "set-aside" for them. Let us try to remember....America is "better" than that.

Maybe we cannot live up to our standards. /sigh

Mike, sounds like your the one who needs to learn how "to get along" with others by your stab at Christians...

initially my response was a no vote, now i'm leaning tthe not sure. in actually reading the article i find that this mosque will be blocks away from the WTC site not on the site which was my first assumption. as distasteful as it is that someone would want to build a mosque this close to where muslim terrorists killed thousands i find myself rather relieved that it isn't going to be on the actual site. i wonder how the muslims would feel about a large christian church (any denomination)being built on or by one of their religious or historic sites, i doubt they would allow it. and there is of course the whole freedom of religion thing, and i don't care about anyone of any religion practicing as they see fit. but i do believe the site for this mosque was an extremely distasteful choice for it's location. kinda like rubbing our noses in it. i'm sure those that were involved in planning this were well aware of the implications and will more then likely be dancing in the streets at their victory over the infedals. just as they did when the towers came down.

WOW!!!!!! An Al Quiada (sp?) headquarters in New York, Maybe Osama Bin Laden will come over here and set up his headquarters here. Then we will not have go so far to find him. He will be right in our own backyard.

Except for the fact this particular religion is also a political movement. There are many things we as americans love - that muslims hate. For instance Jello. As juvenile as it is. Kiss Jello goodbye. Ask the kids how they felt in Chicago when the muslim group there had jello banned from a school - b/c they dont like pork products. Christianity is as much political movement in many ways, but not nearly on the extreme as islamic law. Oh thats right - islamic law.

Well I think it's pretty obvious. If all Muslims are terrorists, all Catholics are pedophiles. We see people defending it and still going. SO that must be true.

Christians have bombed and killed others as well. I guess that makes them all murderers since they still practice their religion. Because if one is like that you know they all are.

The hypocrisy is just incredible.

Well, yes, there's a big difference in this and missionaries traveling to spread the word of God. They aren't going in and attacking and killing people because they don't convert to Christianity.

Maybe, but my God loves me. The muslum god wants me dead.

I Voted, and is in favor of the 82+% !!!......

Innocent Muslims died in the towers, too. Do Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich or any of the rest of you ignorant fools think about this when you spout your "slap in the face of the victims" garbage?

Do you ever think about how you are doing the terrorist's bidding when you blame other innocent Muslims? The terrorists couldn't bring the rational Muslims to their side. They knew the only way to get them to join their fight was to by tricking the gullible here in the United States to attack them.

I remember right after 9/11 reading post after post where fools here were calling for us to launch nuclear weapons against Mecca. They kept using the phrase "glass 'em" which I took to mean send so many bombs that the desert melts into molten glass.

ISLAM DIDN'T ATTACK US! A handful of Muslims with a warped view of their religion did. Stop blaming the innocent and stop misrepresenting them. Start reading up on them from sources that don't have titles like "Whats wrong with Islam." Steer away from the Jack Chicks and the hate spewing talk radio hosts.

82% say no. How about actually listening to the people and doing what is right. Let them build their center, not near ground Zero. There are many Muslims who would see this as a victory over "evil" America. We can't give them this victory. No more allowing Muslims to disrespect Americans.

@bsbfankaren

Are you saying that you think the WTC site is a Christain sacred site? Or are you saying it is sacred in a secular way, ie. because of the people who died on 9/11?

As far as the first, it is not a site dedicated to any diety, Christain or otherwise. If you are talking in the secular sense, the site would also be sacred to Muslims, as Muslims (victims not criminals) also died that day.

Based on this is seems logical to build a Mosque in the vicinity.

Not only that, but Catholics essential promote the spread of AIDS in Africa by condemning the use of contraceptives.

Mike - did you lose a family member on 9/11?

"Can't we all just get along?" If only this could be. From reading the many messages in this post and others it is obvious it cannot. Until tolerance and understanding and acceptance and respect of others and their religious beliefs happen we cannot get along. History has proven that point over and over again with the many atrocities done in GOD, Allah's, Yahweh's and many others names. The problem is that no one has any respect for another and their beliefs and due to this some feel it is nessecary to show this disrespect by force. We can sit here and discuss who did what and to whom but in the end it boils down to the fact that there is no respect in this world for others who do not share the same religious beliefs. Until we change that and understand that most people that follow a religion, no matter what it may be, do so to gain salvation even if they choose a different path to follow. If we continue to allow extremist actions to dictate our views and opinions of a religion we will continue to be ignorant and nothing will change.

I wonder if you think that Jesus was a lunatic. His last words, according to Matthew:

""All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

According to himself, Jesus came to earth to save people, who were already condemned by their own sis. After he left the earth, his believers were to convert others, then they convert others, so that as many people can be saved as possible. That's real Christianity.

There are, "established beliefs" everywhere in the world, of some sort. Jesus knew that. But they're not from God, and won't save them in the end. That's why his disciples were to go them and teach them truth, and hopefully convert as many as possible.

JTowBridge said:

" Mike, the "lunatics" of whom you speak are not flying planes into the buildings in the name of their belief system. What opiates are you doing? I am sure there is help for you in some treatment center at ground zero. "

no but the missionary lunatics did exterminate an entire group of people that inhabited the north american and australian continents, and enslaved and colonized peoples from 4 different continents (Africa, Asia, N. America, S. America)
The few thousand that died during 9/11 (God rest their souls) are a small number compared to the potentially billions of nonwhite peoples that have died at the hands of so called Christians over the last 500 years.

Let them build their mosque there...Let whoever build a church there, or a synagogue...This is america right?? I don't think Muslims celebrate the 9/11 attacks as a divine accomplishment in Islamic history...If we go to Egypt or Pakistan on 9/11, i'm sure its just another day...Not people celebrating the death of over a thousand americans. We're reading 2 much into this

Actually, if one took the time to tally up atrocities by religion, Christianity would have to make the top of the list by any way you decided to score the results.

And since the one who is without sin is supposed to be the one to throw the first stone, the argument to block this from a "Christian" perspective falls apart pretty quickly.

Oh, but this particular religion is also a political movement? Look in the mirror and tell me that the right wing religious groups have no political agendas, or that the close associations of church and state from the middle ages through to the reformation period were just a coincidence. Religion, philosophy, and politics are all intertangled. Perhaps we should turn America into an atheist state and simply outlaw all religions, which would address this concern of religious affiliations affecting our political system head on.

The main problem is that if we set a precedent that we can single out any group just because we don't like them politically, then who else is next? Take St. Patricks under eminent domain and turn it into upscale condos? Turn all the synagogues into daycare centers? Even a sect like Southern Baptists could eliminate all other christian/protestant competition in a town or area. Eminent domain and zoning have to be justifiable and not just thrown around as tools to enforce racism or in knee jerk reactions to xenophobia. If you think that's OK, then you should try living in a facist regime instead of America where freedom of religion and to freely associate are major tenants of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

I'm shocked at how many people out there are constantly screaming about following the Constitution literally and yet here's a case where they want to make an exception, since I guess they don't quite agree with all men being created equal part. Open that door, and someday you'll be in the group who is being persecuted and once rights are given up, there's no going back.

So LARich, did Jesus also command the Gentiles who were themselves converted by the Jews to enslave, exploit and exterminate the population of the entire world?? I don't recall seeing that in the bible. "Christianizing" peoples of there world has always been a self-serving, white supremacist notion. Its about control.

NO,NO,NO,

The thing that most of you are missing is that the whole point of the Mosque is to establish it's victory. Notice the significant places of Mosques, Mecca, Jerusalem, Cordoba (Spain), to name a few. What is the significance? All of these, as well as many others, are placed there in order for the Muslims to say they "won." And for us as Americans who attacked by muslims to then allow them to say they "won," NO WAY!!! Freedom of religion does not mean that a religion that teaches and preaches jihad (holy war) is acceptable. A muslim who wants to believe in Allah or Muhammed is fine, but to follow the Koran, which teaches holy war is not! Come on, wake up America!

Heat Fan - No, the point of mosques is the same as a church. It is a place for worship and prayer. Is a church a billboard saying the local Christians won? And why are you pretending that mosques are only built in certain significant places? There was a protest against a proposed by ignorant people like you this past Friday near me in Temecula, CA. What local victory are they celebrating? Or are they just practicing their religion?

Bingo!

I say yes, because this is uproar brought up by your sweetheart Palin is simply BS......she has got to keep her ratings up on Fox ya know......The more insane the better for her.

Regardless of what kind of church is being built in the area should not be off anyones concern except for the people building it.....One of the reasons this country was founded was on freedom of Religion. You may not like it but there you are. Grow up and deal with it.

The fact that 82% voted NO, well it just confirms that 82% of the responders on this question are insane.

Besides, all this is just political posturing anyway.....we are all better off just forgetting about it and moving on....don't we all have enough stress in our lives to deal with this dribble.

Western civilization and Islam are completely incompatible and cannot co-exist. Evidence of this abounds worldwide since where ever they emigrate to they go about the business of creating Islamic enclaves within the host country.

In France, for example, they've created essentially a miniature Islamic country within France where French culture. Police and laws are unwelcome and in that Islamic enclave sharia law prevails.

There are numerous examples around the world clearly demonstrating that immigrating Muslims have no desire to meld into the host country's culture but to create Islamic states within the country's borders with the goal of eventually overrunning the country and whose inhabitants will become a persecuted minority in their own land.

This will happen in the United States as well, especially with the tact approval of chairman Obama who will leave no stone unturned in his efforts to relegate mainstream America to minority status.

I recall reading about a general years ago, in the 50's I think, saying that we need not fear losing our country to some foreign invader; rather we will lose it from within. Prophetic words.

New York has as many A holes as

DC.

Big deal!! there are so many places serving alcohol and drugs and adult pornography etc.. around grand zero which is a big sin to God! but all we care about! is a mosque! simply a worship place!
9/11 is caused by one person who is the master mind who had a serious problem with W. Bush policy toward the middle east, let's blame W Bush for not taking him serious enough unless he knew about it and had other plans. Don't forget! Americans can be very evil sometimes remember Timothy McVeigh….!!! Maybe we should not build a church around Oklahoma effected building either! Maybe we should not build any church any more due to the children been molested by many priest that's even worse and sick YO..!!

@ Heat Fan, The Qur'an does not teach holy war. At the time the Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad, Muslims were under attack by non-Muslims and what you refer to as teaching holy war is actually Allah giving the Muslims permission to fight back and defend themselves. As with any written work, lines can become blurred and people bend them to use them how they want. If you want to say that the Qur'an teaches holy war maybe you should actually read it in its historical context before you make ignorant accusations.

They want a place to worship their Martyrs…

@ gcf, As it is a sin for a Christian to worship anyone other than GOD it is the greatest sin for Muslims to worship anyone but Allah. This Mosque is not being built to worship martyrs but to worship Allah.

Makes you wonder who the editor is on this Newsvine thread.....must of the top voted for comments have been collapsed by "the community" = basically anything negative whatsoever.

this was a correct decision...however the people of this country really need to look at islam and its intentions. I do not believe the intentions were good on this and this is a complete travesty. It speaks good of our system that they allowed it...but speaks badly and volumes about the character and intentions of the people of islam

Not just no, but HELL NO!! In a city as large as NYC they can't find a better spot for a Mosque?? It better have good security or some fool will blow the $h*t out of it and I don't wanna hear a damn thing about it when they do!! Stupid,stupid,stupid!! This country is constipated with PC and needs a mother f**king enema !!!

Yeah. During the crusades the Pope rode at the front...a murderer leading other murderers. I am a Christian who does not want the Catholic church to give me a bad name, so I feel that the many good Muslims deserve the same kind of fair treatment.

Well first the whole killing other religions works both ways:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Genocide

And to respond to Heat Fan I would venture to say that they build mosques in those areas because Christianity, Judism and Muslim all share common religous locations... They even share common teachings as they are all rooted in the same events/people. Maybe the problem here is not bigotry or hatred but knowledge (on both sides). Maybe if we could stop our hate mongering for a few seconds we might see we're really not all that different.

james-1416766 - Would it be better for Muslims to just sit back and allow their faith to be defined by terrorists, political grandstanders like Gingrich and Palin and hateful talk radio hosts?

What bad intentions does this show? They want to worship. They want to show that they are everyday people like you and me. They don't want to be marginalized while distorted images of their faith are ingrained in the minds of people like you.

Build it! This is America, like it or leave it! FREEDOM OF RELIGION is what we stand for. I can't believe how many fools wear blinders and are so self serving!

its in historical context...whenever muslims have conquered they build mosques.

they could have chosen another place to show respect and it obvious by the poll here at least 8 out of 10 disagree with this.

this is a slap in the face of americans....you cant argue that point..there were other less controversial places to build.

they still choose to do so...and they have the right to.

I support their right to build...I dont respect their decision to.

peace.

oh and muslims do sit back and let their faith be defined by terrorists...by allowing their attack daily around the world and killing of women and children....they do not unite as a religion to stop the killing....heck they even kill each other.

The new World Trade Tower is privately owned. It is up to the owners of the property to decide what is or isn't appropriate to their vision of their space.

The U.S. Government has closed mosques that were possible clearing houses for Muslim lunatic fringe. But, the U.S. Government has also closed down Christian-cult lunatic centers, too.

The Muslims who are at odds with their own religion are the fewest, but also the loudest. Most Muslims are ordinary people who are as disgusted at jihad's dogma as you might be at allowing a conservative Christian fundamentalist group rule your life. But, how does one separate the "good" from the "bad?" I'll leave that one up to The Bible:

"Let a tree be known by the fruit that it bears."

And if a mosque becomes a problem, close it. Otherwise, we are all children of Abraham, and all are worshiping the same god, be it God, Allah, or Jehovah.

james-1416766 - I do argue you point. It is a slap in the face of ignorant Americans who either don't or won't believe that innocent Muslims died on 9/11.

8 out of 10 disagree? Being a book reader who has loves to read about religion, this doesn't shock me. The section for Islam was always tiny and full of books by/about Rumi and Khalil Gibran - a mystic poet and a Christian with a foreign name. Today that section is larger, but all the growth is in anti-Islam rants. And as a tangent, the anti-Christian books usually aren't in the Christian section in my experience. Double standard?

Most people don't know about Islam other than what they read or hear tv and the radio. That is full of misinformation or straight out lies. It makes sense that 8 out of 10 wouldn't get it.

What appears to be missing from every "pro-build-it" is context.

Stories are told of the Christian conquests, but that is ancient history. Certainly there are Christians proselytizing around the world. It's a nice story of Christian hate may want to rail on about.

Context to this story is this - Feisal Abdul Rauf is the Imam leading the charge. Shortly after 9/11 he said "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened."

He also said in 2004 ""The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets."

Clearly this man has an agenda - he is anti-Christian, most would call his words hate-speech, and this is the person who is going to bring Muslim reconciliation to the US?

What a disgusting joke.

If this moves forward, it will bring nothing but violence and further hatred.

If these Muslims had any decency at all, they would help pay for a monument to the victims, and build their Mosque outside city limits.

That would be the decent, tolerant, "intelligent life" kind of thing to do.

willowbrook

"82% say no. How about actually listening to the people and doing what is right. Let them build their center, not near ground Zero. There are many Muslims who would see this as a victory over "evil" America. We can't give them this victory. No more allowing Muslims to disrespect Americans."

One of the points of our form of government is to prevent the majority from running ruffshod over the minority. It doesn't matter how many people vote to prevent people from exercising their rights, we can't allow it to happen if we want to keep our own freedoms. If we don't pay attention to the lessons of history we are apt to repeat the bad events. Read the following:

http://hubpages.com/hub/Martin_Niemoller

For all you idiots spewing about how Christians had crusades 1000 years ago....That was 1000 years ago. Christianity has evolved, Islam has not. Islamic states still stone people to death for cryin out loud! It is not OK to defend Islam's atrocities today for atrocities others committed generations ago. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Context to this story is this - Feisal Abdul Rauf is the Imam leading the charge. Shortly after 9/11 he said "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened."

He also said in 2004 ""The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets."

Clearly this man has an agenda - he is anti-Christian, most would call his words hate-speech, and this is the person who is going to bring Muslim reconciliation to the US?

Wow who knew telling the truth was anti-Christian? By now I think a lot of us knew that.

He did not say the US deserved it. He simply said what led up to the attacks. They didn't just attack us for no reason as much as many people would like to believe that. No one on 9-11 deserved to die but America's habit of meddling in Middle Eastern affairs is exactly why we got attacked.

And it was "Christians" who bombed Hiroshima and killed so many innocent people.

If it has become un-Christian to speak the truth then I am much more the glad that I am not a Christian.

To the go along to get along crowd, where is the funding coming from? This is not cheap real estate! I am, btw, in the 82% crowd who recognize the entire plan here is to raise a victory symbol on ground zero. You know, like a dog urinating in your yard to show you who is boss. If he can mark it, it's his. Ignorance reigns supreme.

Boycott New York City!!!!!!!

I hear people saying that this will be OK since they are building blocks away. If they are establishing that muslim place in any area devastated on 9-11 then it is the same as if it was at ground zero to me. The terrorists will see it in that manner also and celebrate the establishment of a mosque on any area destroyed in the 9-11 attacks. This will be a tremendous propaganda victory for them and you'd better believe that they're going to use it for just that. Someone is going to take the construction of that mosque personally and I doubt very much that it will last very long. It is a huge insult to our dead of 9-11. I won't be suprised or shed a tear if sometime in the future I run across a picture of New Yorkers roasting marshmallows over the dying embers of that building.

@ Touch Me Tonight - no the WTC site is not a Christian religious site. BUT it was destroyed by MUSLIM terrorists. By placing the Mosque there, it validates their victory over evil America. WE can't give them that validation. I would say the same if some Jewish or Christian sect were responsible. But they are NOT!

@ Gayle who said:

One of the points of our form of government is to prevent the majority from running ruffshod over the minority. It doesn't matter how many people vote to prevent people from exercising their rights, we can't allow it to happen if we want to keep our own freedoms. If we don't pay attention to the lessons of history we are apt to repeat the bad events.

There is no "running ruffshod" over this minority. They are not being prevented from exercising their rights.They can put their mosque up, somewhere else. This argument is not about their rights. We are talking about a piece of property, there are many other properties that would do just as well. Pay more attention to the beliefs of radical Muslims, it is eye-opening, and not at all in favor of the "rights" of Americans, especially women.

BUT it was destroyed by MUSLIM terrorists. By placing the Mosque there, it validates their victory over evil America.

Validates their victory over America?

So you think they won and they just need validation huh?

Alrighty then...

And if it is just a piece of property what's the big deal? You do know innocent Muslims died in the WTC attacks don't you?

But it's okay to treat them as if they are not victims. After all, they're just Muslims.

BUT it was destroyed by MUSLIM terrorists.

Btw.. look at your own sentence...

It was done by Muslim TERRORISTS - not THESE Muslims.

They had a mosque that was only blocks away. They could have just revamped that one instead they chose to seek the ability to build close to the twin towers. It is wrong. It is in bad taste and anyone claiming otherwise is just being PC. Muslim radicals are not PC. They bet on many Americans being shamed into being PC. And it isn't about freedom of religion. Practicing Islam is fine - just in another location. The family members who go there to remember their loved ones shouldn't have to put up with this. Their feelings should have counted and been considered! Also, I have heard they are planning on dedicating the site on 9/11. That is also wrong. I hope that was misinformation. That will be the ultimate slap in the face. Have your mosque somewhere else, dedicate it on a different day. Liberalism will destroy the world.

@ Eris, they weren't innocent to the Terrorists. As they were working with the Americans, there were just as bad as the rest of them.

Gee, if it is just a piece of property, then why has there been ONGOING debate on how to use the property since 9/11?? That piece of property is a symbol to New Yorkers and to Americans as well. You do realize the Leader of the Mosque that is pushing this has supported these "radical Muslims?"

This is a community center/mosque. It was to be open to other faiths as well not just Muslims. They sound REAL radical... NOT

Practicing Islam is fine but .. just where you think they should be allowed to?

This is the US. As long as they can get a permit, buy a building whatever they need to do. They can practice where they want.

They are not the damned terrorists and it's a shame people treat them that way.

@ Eris, they weren't innocent to the Terrorists. As they were working with the Americans, there were just as bad as the rest of them.

That's not the point. It's that our people are acting as if they weren't in the building - as if they weren't victims.

Everybody keeps going on about respect to the victims but are blatantly ignoring that they too were victims. They were Muslim but they were AMERICANS too. Wtf?

Imagine being the family of Salman Hamdani. The 23-year-old New York City police cadet was a part-time ambulance driver, incoming medical student, and devout Muslim. When he disappeared on September 11, law enforcement officials came to his family, seeking him for questioning in relation to the terrorist attacks. They allegedly believed he was somehow involved. His whereabouts were undetermined for over six months, until his remains were finally identified. He was found near the North Tower, with his EMT medical bag beside him, presumably doing everything he could to help those in need. His family could finally rest, knowing that he died the hero they always knew him to be.

What about HIS family? Not only do they lose their son in the attacks but they are considered to be no different than terrorists in this country.

Or this woman?

Imagine being Baraheen Ashrafi, nine months pregnant with her second child. Her husband, Mohammad Chowdhury, was a waiter at Windows of the World restaurant, on the top floors of Tower One. The morning of September 11, they prayed salaat-l-fajr (the pre-dawn prayer) together, and he went off to work. She never saw him again. Their son, Farqad, was born 48 hours after the attacks -- one of the first 9/11 orphans to be born. In an interview with CTV Canada, she relates that in the months to follow, she mourned for her husband and endured the hostility of some ignorant people around her. "When they saw me ... I'm wearing a scarf. There is a hate look."

http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm

And now people should respect the victims? Where is the respect for these victims?

Eris, logic has no place in a bigots mind, only hatred keeps them going.

Mike you are a fake. Folks go to another to reply. This guy doesn't have any real ideas. He is just agitating.

@ Eris, we will never see eye to eye on this. You seem to possess that Liberal, "everyone is OK and everyone can do whatever they want" attitude. An attitude I don't share. The attitude you seem to support helped us into 9/11 through complacent attitudes that everyone is OK and no one would ever attack us on our own soil. Well, obviously, that is not true, and it could happen again. Picking out stories of wronged Muslims doesn't make the current situation right. There were many wronged persons after 9/11, Muslims didn't have the corner on the market and putting a Mosque up there now will not correct those "wrongs." Face it, most Americans are more interested now in what goes on around them and are interested in making sure 9/11 never happens again. Putting this Mosque here will fuel the fires of the radical Muslims and will embolden them to commit further acts. Nip it in the bud now, not pick up the pieces later.

willowbrook - No, the mosque will remind people who don't know anything about Islam, like you, that Muslims are everyday people, like you.

Excellent post, Eris. More than that, I'm glad that someone finally pointed out that Muslims can also be Americans. Too many of these posts make the people out to be one or the other. I suppose that's the fundamental problem.

As far as the new community center, imagine 50 years from now that you are speaking to your grandchildren about the attacks at WTC. How would you prefer those children see you: as someone who fought to deny Constitutional rights to a group because your emotions won out over reason, or would you prefer to show how decent we are to ALL of our citizens by welcoming a community center that many would prefer to vilify? If you are a true American (and even a true conservative), you can only choose the latter.

The Constitution isn't a piece of trash to toss aside whenever it doesn't fit your motives. It is the common thread the holds us together, and it should protect us all equally...even when the enemy is ourselves. The enemy comes from within, indeed.

True Nazi/Marxist ideolgy, Mike. Wonder whose name you will call when you are lying on your deathbed, or will you be so strung out on "opiates" that you won't care?

@ Eris, we will never see eye to eye on this. You seem to possess that Liberal, "everyone is OK and everyone can do whatever they want" attitude. An attitude I don't share.

Funny but fascists share your attitude too. There is a difference between do what you want and do what you should in your country. If you want to abandon American principles and behave as the terrorists do by trying to decide who can do what based on things like religion, that's your prerogative. But I think you're in the wrong country.

The attitude you seem to support helped us into 9/11 through complacent attitudes that everyone is OK and no one would ever attack us on our own soil.

Yeah I know. Accepting people as people and not generalizing everyone is how we got attacked? I am sorry that is too funny to even address. So as far as you're concerned we should just live in fear and suspect them all? No wonder you think they won. With you they did.

Discriminating against people is how the terrorists think it is okay to stone women to death too.

Get it? Really for someone who hates terrorists you think a lot like them.

Well, obviously, that is not true, and it could happen again. Picking out stories of wronged Muslims doesn't make the current situation right. There were many wronged persons after 9/11, Muslims didn't have the corner on the market

No they didn't. And neither do white Christian folks which is how everyone is acting by saying they shouldn't be able to have a mosque "too near" the WTC site. They share the same pain as everyone else. It is no fault of theirs that the terrorists attacked and there is no reason for everyone to punish them this way. They have suffered enough just like everyone else.

and putting a Mosque up there now will not correct those "wrongs."

No the idea was for them to reach out to other people of faith and heal the rift that 9-11 caused. Imagine that.. the Christians don't want anything to do with making peace, even though all you hear is how Christians are the ones with the peaceful religion.

Face it, most Americans are more interested now in what goes on around them and are interested in making sure 9/11 never happens again.

A mosque would not interfere with that unless of course someone is just incapable of focusing on whatever it is they claim they want to focus on. If a mosque is all it takes to distract a person they got serious issues that have nothing to do with a mosque.

Putting this Mosque here will fuel the fires of the radical Muslims and will embolden them to commit further acts. Nip it in the bud now, not pick up the pieces later.

Letting them put the mosque there is a slap in the face to bin Laden. According to him we do not want peace and we hate Muslims. Kind of hard to spout that rhetoric and make it seem true when we are proving the opposite.

Anything less is just fueling his fire and makes it easier for him to convince people how much we hate them.

This abomination should not be built anywhere near ground-zero.

@ Eris, you are mad as the majority of those on this post STILL don't agree with you. I am only one in over 161,000 who disagree with you. And stop "creating" my belief system in your posts, you are WAAAAY off of reality.

Nothing you have said sways my opinion, and no, I am not a bigot or a racist. (Save you the trouble of bringing those cards out, usually the next step in a Liberal diatribe.) I am, however, a Patriotic American who wants the country to return to the values that made us strong, not abandon them for creative interpretations like those you have posted. (You views kind of remind me of that recent Supreme Court decision where 4 of the Judges ignored the Constitution and Bill of Rights.) If you read all my posts, you would have noted that I said they could have their mosque, elsewhere. I never said they couldn't have it, nor did I put down regular American Muslims. They need to show respect for the people of NYC, not disrespect for an event that has changed that city ever since. Maybe you should be telling THEM your beliefs!

Apologies--

I have no idea how my post was made three times. Not my doing; or, not intentional.

82% say no. How about actually listening to the people and doing what is right

so 82% of Americans are intolerant bigots. What else is new...

See, that's the beauty of the Constitution. Even if people want to deny rights to a certain group of people they feel are "lesser" than them, they don't get to. That's what makes our country great.

There is no legitimate reason to oppose the building of this mosque save for racial and religious intolerance. PERIOD.

This abomination should not be built anywhere near ground-zero.

funny, i didn't realize it was an abomination. I thought it was a mosque.

I think you're confused.

No, it is certainly an abomination. You are confused if you support the Isalmic jihadist scum.

@ DrowningGrover - Quit making things up. There is no denying of rights here. There is no bigotry here. There is a BIG PROBLEM with the location of the proposed Mosque. This is no different than a zoning issue. The location is inappropriate. It is no different than putting a re-hab clinic for pedophiles by a school. Stop turning this into something it isn't.

82% are Patriotic Americans who put the needs of Americans ahead of the needs of radical foreigners. Unlike the 15% here who could care less about those Americans, only their "self-professed, enlightened mentality." Must be pretty embarrassing being amongst the 15%. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I had beliefs like yours.

Actually I believe the people that would be using the mosque would most likely be Americans. Just because they are muslims doesn't mean they are not patriots or any less American than you. Your zoning reference is misguided.

Paul N....start reading....like this you mean?

From page 111 of Feisal Abdul Rauf's book, "What's Right with Islam"

"It also would not be a violation of church-state separation to have a subsidiary entity within the judiciary that employs religious jurists from diverse religious backgrounds to comment on the compliance of certain decisions with their religious views and to provide guidance to their religious communities on how kosher or Shariah compliant these decisions are. ' - Feisal Abdul Rauf

Are you SURE you want this mosque????

willowbrook

There is a BIG PROBLEM with the location of the proposed Mosque. This is no different than a zoning issue. The location is inappropriate. It is no different than putting a re-hab clinic for pedophiles by a school. Stop turning this into something it isn't.

Your false analogy implies that all Muslims are dangerous to New Yorkers, (as all pedophiles are dangerous to schoolchildren) when in reality, only a small subset of Muslims are.

I would argue it's more like having a school next to a seminary, since only a small subset of priests are a danger to schoolchildren.

(Your argument also appears to presume that locating a Mosque near 1 WTC will encourage or provide temptation for future attacks at the same location. I am curious to hear your argument supporting that contention.)

In any case, to suggest that we do anything to restrict a religious group's freedom is not an American sentiment. Can any of the people taking the more popular view here suggest how this proposed "banning" be conducted under law? (Do we declare the existing building a landmark simply to prevent the Mosque? Exercise eminent domain? Pass a new law? Amend the constitution?)

There is a BIG PROBLEM with the location of the proposed Mosque. This is no different than a zoning issue. The location is inappropriate. It is no different than putting a re-hab clinic for pedophiles by a school. Stop turning this into something it isn't.

So are all catholic priests homosexual pedophiles? YOUR LOGIC... I'm just applying it to another religion...

So you support zoning catholic churches how far away from public schools?

mike your crusades and missionary stuff is getting tired--if the track record of muslim missionaries was non violent than fine--but it is quite the opposite--death to the infidels--i hope you are not one of the infidels at some point because their beliefs on freedom of religion are death to the infidels--get it??

The families and victims deserve better than this! Incredible is right!

But the NYC mayor Bloomberg owns the land, he stands to make a fortune from this. Crooked a.s.s. hat. The ONLY reason its being ok'd.

Its always about Dollar signs.....

You're right. It is incredible that so many people think the only religion should be Christianity, and paint all Muslims as evil. This country is built on freedom, including speech and religion.

check again - you're losing your rights every single day in this country - things keep going the way they are - you'll lose your freedom of speech. I wish everyone could co-exist but that requires toleration from EVERY religion not just some.

freedom of speech only applies to those who speak loudest. Most of the Christians I know are the quiet ones who help others, do their jobs with honesty, and have no time to be politically active. The crusades were financed and managed by a government run religion, not a group of individuals that try to follow the teachings of Christ.

Most of the founders of our country weren't Jews or Christians either - they were Deists.

Besides, I don't think that freedom of religion is what's at issue here. I'm sure that many of the people opposed to the idea of this SPECIFIC mosque aren't necessarily against Islam in general. They may be perfectly okay with Muslims having religious freedom, but just are uncomfortable with the location of this one mosque.

ashdownpanther:

They are all semitic religions. They are so similar as to be nearly indistinguishable. That is why they are always at each other's throats. They only separated at the burning bush...

There's been a lot of problems with these Islamic groups having ties to extremist groups and terrorist groups. A mosque here in Houston was shut down for. And there are questions about this group who wants to build this mosque. If this is allowed to happen, we are just asking for trouble. I'm quite sure most of the people who will attend this mosque are good people, just like most of us, but it's the others who will also be there that we should be watching out for.

Nihad Awad has spoken out that he prefers Hamas that backs terrorists. CAIR is an unindicted co-conspirator charged with funneling funds to terrorists according to the FBI.

This has NOTHING to do with freedom of religion, no one is saying they cant practice their religion.

The Anti Defamation League has also spoken out against this mosque.

Nihad Awad has spoken out that he prefers Hamas that backs terrorists

So did the Bush administration! They supported TERRORISM and TERRORISTS!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1543798/US-funds-terror-groups-to-sow-chaos-in-Iran.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?aid=5837&context=va

Looks like one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter... and Hypocrisy is indeed running rampant!

Never trust a moderate muslim. He is the cover for a radical.

Never trust a racist. He is the cover for a scared idiot.

Vicki,

Our National motto: "In GOD we trust."

Declaration of Independence:

“IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..."

U.S. Constitution:

“…done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independance of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,

G°. Washington
Presidt and deputy from Virginia

Delaware
Geo: Read
Gunning Bedford jun
John Dickinson
Richard Bassett
Jaco: Broom

Maryland
James McHenry
Dan of St Thos. Jenifer
Danl. Carroll

Virginia
John Blair
James Madison Jr.

North Carolina
Wm. Blount
Richd. Dobbs Spaight
Hu Williamson

South Carolina
J. Rutledge
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
Charles Pinckney
Pierce Butler

Georgia
William Few
Abr Baldwin

New Hampshire
John Langdon
Nicholas Gilman

Massachusetts
Nathaniel Gorham
Rufus King

Connecticut
Wm. Saml. Johnson
Roger Sherman

New York
Alexander Hamilton

New Jersey
Wil: Livingston
David Brearley
Wm. Paterson
Jona: Dayton

Pennsylvania
B Franklin
Thomas Mifflin
Robt. Morris
Geo. Clymer
Thos. FitzSimons
Jared Ingersoll
James Wilson
Gouv Morris”

Excerpts from George Washington’s Farewell Address:

“…The name of american, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles…Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle....Though, in reviewing the incidents of my administration, I am unconscious of intentional error, I am nevertheless too sensible of my defects not to think it probable that I may have committed many errors. Whatever they may be, I fervently beseech the Almighty to avert or mitigate the evils to which they may tend. I shall also carry with me the hope, that my Country will never cease to view them with indulgence; and that, after forty-five years of my life dedicated to its service with an upright zeal, the faults of incompetent abilities will be consigned to oblivion, as myself must soon be to the mansions of rest.”

Vicki, these were not the “deists” non (or in many cases anti) Christians would like to make them out as. They specifically included God in their major writings. They specifically wrote, “In the year of our Lord” using the Christian calendar. They did not use the Muslim or Muhammaden calendar, they did not use the Jewish calendar and they did not use some sort of Pagan calendar. They recognized that it was the year of Jesus Christ. This is not the trademark of a non-Christian deist. As you can see, George Washington made referral to the need for religious guidance several times in his speech, although he also admonished the people to suffer the freedoms of all religions. The fact was that the "common religion" he referred to in his speech was Christianity. It is what brought the Pilgrims over here. It was the basis for the first Thanksgiving. That fact not withstanding, if you look over the first 100 years or so of this great nation you will see that Christian influence played a huge part in our development and governance.

It is also a fact that to some degree or another 84% of Americans identifies themselves as Christians. The “religion” of a nation is determined by the percentage of the citizenry that identifies with a religion. A nation is considered a “Muslim” nation if 70% or more of the population identifies themselves as Muslim. A country is considered a “Christian” nation if 70% or more of the citizenry considers themselves to be Christian. Accordingly, the United States of America is indeed a Christian nation and we should not only be recognized accordingly, but we should act accordingly. That means we do not trash those who are not. However we should also be ready neutralize those who would try to destroy our way of life.

As an aside, I believe many more people would understand overall how this nation was supposed to function and how clearly George Washington our first president saw the dangers we are facing today and how they could have been avoided if our leaders and the people who elect them had read his farewell address. For the edification of all who may be interested, here is a link to George Washington’s Farewell Address.

http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/farewell/text.html

"They specifically included God in their major writings."

Major personal writings. When they wrote the Constitution as a group, they made NO mention of God. They made NO mention of religion. Religion was mentioned later in the First Amendment, but it is included with the press, assembly, speech and other forms of expression. It was not given its own special place. It was acknowledged as nothing more than a means of expressing oneself which was protected against regulation by the newly formed Federal government.

We are not a Christian nation. You can not point to one uniquely Christian thing about our nation. You can not reconcile my First Amendment right to worship or not worship as I please with the commandment that I have no god but God.

Wassa matter Fred, no quotes from the actual constitution to support your opinion?

Awwwwwww... Let me quote it for you.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It is the US Constitution... THE LAW OF THE LAND.

If you do not like it, feel FREE to leave it.

Buh bye...

Never trust a moderate christian. He is the cover for a radical.

Amazing, it works equally as well the other way too!

Big deal!! there are so many places serving alcohol and drugs and adult pornography etc.. around grand zero which is a big sin to God! but all we care about! is a mosque! simply a worship place!
9/11 is caused by one person who is the master mind who had a serious problem with W. Bush policy toward the middle east, let's blame W Bush for not taking him serious enough unless he knew about it and had other plans. Don't forget! Americans can be very evil sometimes remember Timothy McVeigh….!!! Maybe we should not build a church around Oklahoma effected building either! Maybe we should not build any church any more due to the children been molested by many priest that's even worse and sick YO..!!

While reading most of the comment on this page I think it is a good idea that the Mosque is being built there. The point is to teach people the difference between Muslims and people who use the name of a religion to do terrorist acts. If it was built further away it would not make news and nobody would take interest in knowing what Islam teaches. Same as when MANY Imams have denounced terrorism and it has not made news because that is not interesting enough and may make people realize that Muslims are against terrorism.

As for the issue of sensitivity for the 9/11 family, this is BIG slap in the face of the terrorists. It will make the World and the Muslims in it to realize that America in indeed the nation of the FREE. That the American people are not going to be frightened into restricing people's rights and changing their Amendments. This is what the nation was found on and we should not let anybody change our ways.

Marty-733464 - Can you please cite the Supreme Court ruling you mentioned? All I can find is a private letter from John Jay where he states we are a Christian nation. If you can easily dismiss a letter written by then President Jefferson, I can dismiss Jay's letter.

Paul N and Zaphod, did you not see the closing of the U.S. Constitution just above the signatures? Believe it or not, that is part of the U.S. Constitution. That is why I posted it. Read the entire message. Read the entire posting. The Pilgrims came here to be able to freely practice their CHRISTIAN religion.

Read the post again. If you have to, go to the U.S. Constitution. Read the part just above the signatures. Where it sates, IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD. Which "Lord" would you suppose they were talking about? Your assumptions do not trump fact.

"In the year of our Lord" was a common phrase. I don't suddenly become a theist just because I use the common "bless you" after someone sneezes.

We are not a Christian nation. We are a secular nation wherein a large number of Christians are free to practice their religion.

The constitutional structure and bill of rights was based self-consciously on Scriptural teachings of law and how we would treat our neighbor under the law.

Funny, the actual function of the US Constitution is to set up our government and the rules it MUST follow.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

Read up

John Jay:

It is to be regretted, but so I believe the fact to be, that except the Bible there is not a true history in the world

The Bible... the TRUE history of the world... The one that excludes Dinosaurs and claims the world is only 2000 years old?

YEA... ok

Muslims build mosques on conquered land. Educate

The Pilgrims came here to be able to freely practice their CHRISTIAN religion.

They came here to ESCAPE religious persecution... So why would they set up a government to persecute others? Perhaps they were all hypocrites like you?

Perhaps the wording of the constitution means EXACTLY what it says, no matter how many times you try to twist it your way.

Notice how it is ONLY mentioned in a way that is personal, and does NOT pertain to the governing of America?

Paul - pull a coin out of your pocket. In whom do we trust?

No evidence. Nice try. Hate is hate no matter how you try to dress it up.

Yep, John Jay was a real reactionary. I think he would fit in with the current supreme court. I believe he wrote something like 'The people who own this country ought to run it.' Sounds like a supreme court decision earlier this year. At any rate, George Washington, who went to church but did not stay for the communion, worked to create a government in which, essentially men, people took responsibility for themselves, that would make him a diest. He did not twiddle his thumbs and sat around and waited to have God do everything for him. The year of our Lord was the common way to refer to the current year in those times, just as we now say either AD, or CE. George Washington was one of those people who believed that people should live according to their time and accordingto their needs. That would not preclude religious beliefs as he knew or understood them.

Did you happen to miss the section that states "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..."

Notice they state their Creator, not God. I take this to mean whichever Creator their religion worships.

Muslims build mosques on conquered land. Educate

We really are "conquered" if we surrender who and what we are, just to adapt their morals and ethics..

Until then, it is YOU that are defeated... not me

Paul N,

Excuse my error - it was in a letter from John Jay - my apologies. However, it doesn't change the point of contention. Also, I did not dismiss Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists. If you read my post again, I said that it bolstered the position that the "separation of churchand state" error that is thrown around has been done so out of place and context to push an agenda.

Zaphod, sorry you're so quick to dis the Bible. If you studied you would find the Leviathon and the Behemoth in the book of Job, from who's description can be nothing less than large creatures that we don't see today, say like a dinosaur. A triple UUU for you.

More on our Christian history:

John Jay, the first chief justice of the United States, appointed by George Washington, wrote to Jedidiah Morse Feb. 28, 1797 (the same year the Treaty of Tripoli was ratified), "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

John Adams, America's second president and the same one who signed and sent the Treaty of Tripoli to the Senate, just one year later delivered these words in a military address Oct. 11, 1798, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

And to what religion is Adams referring? He gave us an answer when he wrote Thomas Jefferson June 28, 1813, "The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite. ... And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were united."

Patrick Henry wrote to Archibald Blair Jan. 8, 1799,"The greatest pillars of all government and of social life: I mean virtue, morality and religion. This is the armor, my friend, and this alone, that renders us invincible."

Charles Carroll, a signer of the Constitution, wrote to James McHenry Nov. 4, 1800, "Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion whose morality is so sublime and pure. … are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

John Quincy Adams, America's sixth president, spoke at an Independence Day celebration in 1837, "Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity…?

Andrew Jackson, our seventh president, pointed to a Bible as he lay sick near death in 1845 and said, "That book, sir, is the rock on which our republic rests."

How much clearer can it be? There are no contradictions between the preceding leadership sayings and those drafted by Joel Barlow, the author and diplomat of the Treaty of Tripoli, when one understands the historical, diplomatic and religious context of it all.

Also, once again, the three branches of our government and it's Trinitarian structure.

America was founded as a Christian nation.

Now whether or not it has remained one is the discussion for another day!

Boycott New York City!!!!!!!

Paul F - Look at the Constitution. No one can explain how a Christian nation which would seeming uphold the Ten Commandments allows me to worship or not worship as I please in direct defiance to one of the first of those commandments (the exact number depends on what sect you belong to). I have asked numerous times on numerous sites for a reconciliation between our Constitution and the Ten Commandments and I have yet to get an answer.

I also have never heard what was uniquely Christian about our laws.

@Marty-733464 for comment #3.30:

John Adams (POTUS #2) and John Quincy Adams (POTUS #6) were both Unitarians. Using them as examples of Christians would seem disingenous.

Zaphod, sorry you're so quick to dis the Bible. If you studied you would find the Leviathon and the Behemoth in the book of Job, from who's description can be nothing less than large creatures that we don't see today, say like a dinosaur. A triple UUU for you.

How, EXACTLY, is quoting the EXACT text of the bible... a "dis"?

yea, "dinosaurs" roamed the earth the same time man did, I forgot about scientology! MY BAD!

/sarcasm

Duh - (the name says it all I think),

I did not assert that all of our founding fathers were Christians, per se, but even those such as John Adams and his son John Q. who were Unitarians (which sprung out of biblical Congregationalism), have left behind clear evidence of their beliefs in the "principals" of Christianity, the relevance of the Scriptures, and the importance of a nation and a people to hold to these moral truths.

When the term "Christian Nation" is stated, it does not mean and obviously cannot mean that every last person in a government or a nation can or will be converted to "Christianity." But it does mean that a nation is governed by the principles of the religion - the rule of law, the work ethic, compassion for the weak and poor, etc. The founders writings are also clear that these principals will not work in a nation who's people reject the principals of Christianity and it's God, which is obviously happenning in this day - and we are seeing the fruits of it - even in some of these posts.

Some people on this post need to educate themselves before they spew their garbage.

1. The "founding fathers" usually refers to signers of the Declaration of Independence or Constitution, of which over 90% claimed affiliation with some form of Christian religon (Anglican, Presbyterian, Catholic, etc) so don't try to say they weren't Christians. Of the 204 there were no Muslims or athiests.

2. If the muslim religon was being hijacked by some radicals, they just have to stand up and say so. Just stand up and condemn the radicals behind 9/11. They keep saying the radicals are just a few misguided people. But they don't condemn their actions, they just say they are misguided. They say more in their silence than if they shouted from the rooftops.

The people were dancing in the streets for crying out loud when the towers came down. And then you mamby pamby pacifists say its ok to build a mosque a few blocks from ground zero. While you're at it, dig a tunnel from the middle east so bin Laden can come pick up his "pay" whenever he's low on cash.

Zapped 3.35: Where did you "exactly" quote the Bible and if you did how is it related to the existence (or not) of dinosaurs?

Zapped 3.36: How does the Book of Job in the Holy Bible have any relationship to Scientology?

What are you smokin'?

Leviathon and the Behemoth in the book of Job

/snicker...

Zapped 3.36: How does the Book of Job in the Holy Bible have any relationship to Scientology?

I'd say EXACTLY as much as a 'leviathan' or 'behemouth' has to do with dinosaurs...

"Look at Behemoth, which I made just as I made you; it eats grass like an ox. 16 Its strength is in its loins, and its power in the muscles of its belly. 17 It makes its tail stiff like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are knit together. 18 Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like bars of iron. 19 "It is the first of the great acts of God-- only its Maker can approach it with the sword."

So was GOD taking him back thru time, or were they walking the earth at the same time?

So, what is it you are smoking?

Mom90210 - Muslims the world over have condemned terrorism. You either haven't heard because your news sources have an agenda against Islam, or you have chosen to not hear them.

Here are just a few:

http://facts-not-fear.blogspot.com/2007/11/more-muslim-condemnation-of-terrorism.html

Congrats, Paul N, for holding the conversation to the truth of our history while the haters give us their version of history that's like Faux News' versions of the daily news.

The fact that Simple Sarah and the former dis-honorable Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich, are using this issue to ingratiate themselves to the lowest base of the Repugnican party demonstrates how desperate they are to create false issues for political benefit.

Newt needs to be reminded that he was essentially run out of the congress with serious ethics charges hanging over his head and was proven to be a complete crud for his extramarital affairs. He doesn't have the credibility to be elected as dogcatcher and, oh yea, he works for F.N.

As for S.S., she will eventually be required to answer questions without having the answers provided beforehand. Even her biggest fans, those down home low intellect supporters, will figure out that she's a loser without a clue like everybody else working at F.N.

Fred4 claiming that the use of the "year of the lord" on historic documents is evidence of our being a Christian nation is classic repug b.s.

Any body with a brain knows that this is 2010 A.D. (Anno Domini) or (year of the lord). This has been used by the Christian world since the 9th century A.D. Only right wing idiots think everybody else is as stupid as they are!!

NYC's decision was based on freedom of religion and not the emotional hate rhetoric of F.N. and the rest of the right wing slugs.

But the NYC mayor Bloomberg owns the land, he stands to make a fortune from this. Crooked a.s.s. hat. The ONLY reason its being ok'd.

well that and the 1st amendment to the Constitution...

This is truly a slap in the face to those who lost their lives on Sept 11 as well as their families.

Good point. All muslims were secretly involved in the plot actually carried out by only 19 radical members.

Stop trying to force your beliefs and intolerance onto everyone else.

I don't get that "all Islamists are not extremists". If that were the case then the majority of Islamists would be outwardly protesting the every vile move that the so-called extremists make. This is not the case. Hiding and saying nothing connotates complicity. Complicity indicates approval. Approval says you are part of the murderous operation we all know as Islamic extremist.

Don't you think that the extremist Islamics would made it hard or even kill the other guys who oppose them? It takes a lot of nerve to speak up and then rot in prison or be killed.

I think any extremist, whether it's Islamic or Christianity or whatever, have no place in society.

Pumbaa, that means they approve and are part of the problem, not the solution.

Educated Liberal

Said....."Good point. All muslims were secretly involved in the plot actually carried out by only 19 radical members."

But it was celebrated al over the midle east , . I still remember people in meddle east celebrating victory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmo64fcvKs0&feature=related

#4.3.........................THAT'S RIGHT!!! WHERE ARE THEY? THEIR SILENCE TELLS THE STORY...............WORLD DOMINATION...............WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

Oskar

Thank you for posting that video!

I was visiting the memorial to the Pearl Harbor attack in Hawaii a few years ago and a group of tourists from Japan was making fun in Japanese of the people who died. The tour guide who was a white as me but also spoke Japanese like me heard them and had them escorted off the Memorial.

They were so shocked that he knew what they said so I told them "Well not all people are as ignorant as you"

upset ohio your just not thinking strait to your surprise there were muslim police officers and firefighters that died also that might be a surprise to you

Mike,

Telling someone about Jesus as an oversees missionary and equating it to those who would "force" one to believe or be killed is quite ridiculous. In fact, it is more likely for the Christian missionary to be oppressed or killed in a foreign country than for them to be the oppressors, yet they do it anyway because of their love for others. This just exposes your animous and hatred for Christians.

Also, please list - by name, "all" of those "Christians" you claim have been raping children and the names of the victims, what church the offender belonged to, what action the legal system took and what was the outcome, what action their churches (if they were members) took. If you cannot do this, you are engaging in baseless, broadbrush slander and you have no integrity or credibility. Of course, those who belong to religions and churches of various stripes can and do commit various crimes - but do they do so because of faulty teachings in the religion or because they do not follow the teachings faithfully or rightly? In my religion we call that - false belief, unrighteousness or backsliding and the offender must repent of their actions. Of course in your world, right or wrong is only measured according to you. No set timeless and objective standards - no absolutes.

diduever and big loogy,
I googled "muslims against terrorism" and there were over 6,050,000 results. The media isnt covering it but that doesnt mean it isnt happening. Look it up!

Oskar....
Kids in Texas schools cheered when Kennedy was assasinated, and again when Reagan was shot. Should Texans not be represented in our country because of this?

"A teacher at Lake Highlands Junior High in 1963, Joanna Shields heard a group of students cheer when the president's shooting was announced. Her call to a Dallas radio station reporting what she had witnessed brought national attention to her and her school. Recorded October 18, 2004."
www.jfk.org/go/collections/oral-histories/interviews-by-name?letter=S

"A group of 7th graders cheered a school announcement of the attempt on President Reagan's life.
"I was dumbfounded. I didn't know what to do," said John Zannini, a teacher at Tulsa Central Academy.
"Here were these kids cheering that the president had been shot. I didn't know what to say."
He said 10 of the 16 pupils in his English class cheered when the principal gave a report of the shooting over the intercom.
Zannini said he checked around and found that some students in the eighth grade had reacted the same way...."Three or four were laughing about it. They asked me if he (President Reagan) was dead. When I said no, that he was doing well, they snapped their fingers and said 'shucks.' ""
·
www.psychohistory.com/reagan/rp12x17.htm

Russian Enigma... Just because a "part of you is Muslim" (which by the way is not possible- either you are or you're not) does not make you an expert on what Islam is. If you researched into what Islam was you would find that it supports the education of women and a lot to do with science. (scienceislam.com). Its people like you who put their names on our religion and say things that are against Islam. Same as the terrorists.

Diduever.... Many Muslims have denounced terrorim. This does not make the news because it is not interesting enough. If you go into Muslim sites you will see for yourself (islamnewsroom.com). Then you can say the same thing about Christians who do not protest against the molestation of children in their churches, why are they silent? Are all christians approving of this behavior?

From many of these comments it seems that the majority of people here are not educated. Please educate and inform yourselves before attacking a religion with beliefs fed by the media.

Kerry - arguing points irrelevant to the story doesn't strengthen the idea that this mosque should be built. The Imam in charge of the project is clearly anti-American, anti-Christian, and his disingenuous claim to "improve relations between Muslims and the west" don't wash with his words - both shortly after 9/11 and as he is quoted in later years.

I don't doubt the vast majority of Muslims are non-violent. This clown isn't one of them, and he is the leader of this project.

So no, I don't support a man filled with hatred of our freedom, our nation, and Christianity.