I need to talk my HR. During the normal 10-11 (5 days a week) work, I need a nap too.

Crimmey, is this Kindergarten and we have nap time?

Maybe we can have other government workers take nap time too. How about the Army (CQ, SDNCO, SDO) 24 hrs duty? Wait...how about will out patrolling? Sorry tallies/enemy, it's our nap time.

southernrn

Naps are already part of the routine for night shift at many hospitals and the results have been very positive. And it really is about saving lives. The kindergarten aspect of this is the bloggers who want to belittle the scientific results or bash unions without engaging in any critical thinking before they start ranting.

don, It's called taking responsibility for your actions. I have no problem with them taking naps on the their breaks (although they're not allowed currently).

They knew the job before they took it. There are other jobs that are on rotating shifts without taking naps (e.g. the Army examples I gave). No where do I slam the unions or belittle scientific results. I'm just tired of people complaining about something they already knew about.

BTW - As I stated in post 5.2 below, my sister is an AC and she does this all time. Never heard her complain (probably because we were raised to take responsibility, bad or good, for our actions).

Human beings are not nocturnal creatures. Although some adapt to working at night, most do not.

Those glib folks who are so quick to criticize have probably never worked a graveyard shift in their lives. The fact is, in some work places, the need for naps has been recognized and naps are allowed. In others, while not sanctioned by employers, the staffers have found ways to allow their co-workers to nap. Fire Department Dispatchers have been doing it for years.

If we want peak performance from critical people in our lives on a 24/7 basis, the least we can do is cooperate with Mother Nature.

Juie

Pay attention. THIS IS NOT ABOUT ACs complaining. It is about ACs falling asleep and scientists finding a solution to that very serious safety problem. Short naps have been incorporated into the night shift work schedules of other safety sensitive jobs like pilots and hospital medical staff with very positive results.

Are you suggesting that those ACs that fall asleep are irresponsible? That is a very foolish statement, you know, especially since you know nothing about the individual circumstances of ACs falling asleep on the job.

Julie being an RN is environmentally different than being an AC. As an RN you are in a well lit room accompanied by at least 2 or 3 other people. As an AC you are in a dark control tower with no one else there and not necessarily very much happening at any given moment depending on the airport. You both have life or death in your hands and since studies have shown better performance from over night workers when they are allowed to nap, I will happily sign a petition for you to be allowed to take a nap on your late shift.

I have no problem with any worker taking a power nap during their break or lunch period. Many years ago I was a telephone operator and just about everybody took a nap sometime during their shift. We too routinely had odd hours and most worked through the night.

I also think that some people are better suited to work nights than others. I am a night person. Lots of people I know are the opposite and could never stay up like I do. I have worked 3rd shift in a building all by myself a few years ago for several months. It was fine for me except the drive home was very tough. I fall asleep easily in the car and after being awake so long it was very difficult.

My suggestion would be for these controllers to find the shift they are best at and stay with that shift. Get a routine. If they choose 3rd or get assigned 3rd adjust food intake, sleep, etc and find what works best. I know people that have worked 3rd for years and then go out to the bars after their shift. They have found their balance. It can be done.

For safety purposes I would think having at least another worker maybe doing paperwork, or a cleaning service at night to have another human being available is best. I am saying if there isn't a need for two controllers there should be maybe some overlap to give the other worker time for a break or lunch.

It seem strange that all of sudden two incidents happened. I really can't believe we are having this discussion. Better solutions should have been implemented a long time ago.

theboys said: "My suggestion would be for these controllers to find the shift they are best at and stay with that shift. Get a routine. If they choose 3rd or get assigned 3rd adjust food intake, sleep, etc and find what works best. I know people that have worked 3rd for years and then go out to the bars after their shift. They have found their balance. It can be done."

The problem is that they do not have the option to work only one shift. The way it is done throughout the country is that every controller rotates throughout the entire 24 hour spectrum throughout their work week. The controllers dont assign their own shifts, management does.

All of you folks sitting there saying"I work NOCs and I dont fall asleep." have NO IDEA what you are talking about when you compare the typical ATC work schedule to yours. It really IS apples to oranges.

Don't count on it. You have to have an important job first. You just have to worry whether you aren't pink slipped in the next year. I know I don't know what you do, but it won't matter this next dip into the reccession whether you are a doctor or the janitor! Good luck.

Do some people really not understand how hard it is to sit alone, in the middle of the night, in a quiet room and stay awake? Especially when your work hours are erratic and you may work 16 hours in a 24 hour period? These people have hundreds, possibly thousands of lives riding on them. I would say it is fairly important that they are able to stay awake, and if that means having a 30 min nap period then I fully support it.

As far as the military comparison goes, I was in the USMC for 5 years and know all about being the DNCO and guess what, I had an assistant DNCO. I would usually let my ADNCO go to sleep for about 3 hours, then I would go to sleep for an hour or so. Cuz you know, sitting at 3 a.m. while you have been up since 7 is pretty tiring. Humans are biologically geared to be awake when its light out and asleep when its dark out. Some of you people are insisting that we have no choice but to trump biology instead of go the easiest and most painless route.

Sure you can have a two hour nap but you're going to be scheduled for a ten hour shift. We'll add your wake-up and lunch times to that and you can work a schedule just like real people.

I know the science behind the studies is sound, but I am skeptical about the urgent need for air traffic controllers to get paid nap breaks. Many other people have dull, repetitive jobs and would benefit from a similar break, but most private employers aren't going to allow that. They don't care if you are tired of standing on your feet and dealing with people all day. Their response would be to suck it up because if you aren't willing to do the job, then many other people would be willing to do it.

They just need to make adjustments to their sleep schedule outside of work. That's what people who work two jobs and/or 2nd or 3rd shifts do. If they can do, then it can't be that hard.

Kelly

Here's something to think about: When most people with a "dull, repetitive job" fall asleep it does not endanger the lives of hundreds of other people. That is the issue.

I have worked several jobs that required graveyard shift duty. I always managed to stay awake but between 3 & 5 AM it was very difficult.

Working back-to-back shifts with only 8 or 9 hours off on a regular basis is insane! In places like Los Angeles it can easily take an hour or more to get home or back to work. By the time you take care of your "home duties" you are lucky to 5 to 6 hours of sleep.

As was pointed out, you really need to stay on the graveyard shift for weeks at a time and adjust your schedule around it. Eat breakfast at night and dinner in the morning when you get home. Stay up after you get home until, when you go to bed, you can get your 7 to 8 hours of sleep before starting your day.

I also agree with the earlier poster who said some people are naturally "night people" and they should be the ones doing the night shifts, if at all possible. Many companies pay a premium for night shift duty to entice the night owls to take the shift.

Although I don't know their staffing level, it sounds like they are way under staffed to start with.

The crazy schedules are one of the main reasons air traffic controllers went on strike (and were illegally fired)! They did this for OUR safety and also to prevent scenarios like we have seen.

We allowed the government to trample their rights and as a result we have endangered our own safety! The government and ourselves are the main culprits to blame.

The rotating shifts are the root of the problem. Put them on fixed shifts where they can get into a regular sleep schedule and the problem will more than likely be fixed and will definately be the fault of the ATC if they do not get enough sleep.

Right now it is like they always have jet lag. And just when they get used to the new shift, they are switched. Almost like management is trying to mess them up.

Right on Roland. They knew what the job was about when they took it. That $161,000 annual salary put rose tinted glasses on them. The problem with fixed shifts is that hours worked between 6PM and 6AM come with a 10% bonus and all the greedy little critters want their share whether they can stay awake or not. Fixed shifts won't work until the shift bonus thing is resolved.

"Okie Bill" said:

"That $161,000 annual salary put rose tinted glasses on them."

Please provide substantiation to that claim. And where did that $161,000 number come from? Fox News?

Here's what the ATC's actually get paid, and it's on a wide range of pay with the median being half that number you likely grabbed from another uninformed reader that didn't do his homework and hates the ATC as much as you do, based on what I read in comments that you posted about ATC's, on Newsvine.

www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Air_Traffic_Controller/Salary

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Just my humble opinion but I think that CHEAP LABOR CONSERVATIVES are afraid that if such a measure of giving rest periods is implemented, that idea may spread to their businesses where they overwork their employees to the point their health goes downhill for working so hard; thus they have to quit or be fired because their productivity's dropping as the cost of their company's health care for their workers are going up.

But what do they care, right? They burn them out, and just replace them with ever-cheaper, younger workers. So long as profits are assured, temp labor and and "at-will" contractors like yourself, are considered, "a dime-a-dozen," in the outsourcing, corporate culture of this nation.

Why not give them a 11 hour shift with an hour for lunch and two hours for a nap midway thru their shift? Is this too simple or what?

Nap time at work? Gee I wonder if my boss would let me take a nap at work? lol

I have a few questions . . .

Why do they need to be paid for napping? Couldn't it be arranged that if they want 2-hour naps, their total time then becomes 10 hours instead of 8? Then the nap time is their own time.

Why is it necessary that they continue to be on rotating shifts? In most professions/businesses, once people become accustomed to their shift time, they don't have problems falling asleep.

Most airports are slow at night unless they have the box haulers, fedex and ups. If we only worked nights at the not as busy places we would not be proficient working the day traffic if we had to. Which inevitably would happen, i.e. overtime.

I have worked overnight in private sector and in ATC. Working in a lighted environment, or with people around, or something that has physical activity is a lot easier than in a tower by yourself. Going hours without an aircraft, hum of all the computers, dark, gets a little mesmorizing. And they don't allow reading, radio, tv, nothing to at least keep an attention span going at something. Not whining, just giving you a little insight.

I doubt the extra hour will do a lot. I was lucky to get 2 hours when i did the quick turns (not at a 24 hour facility now). My worst moment was falling asleep at a red light and being awoken by the guy behind me honking his horn. On the way home at 7 a.m.

Another aspect overlooked is staffing is not good at a lot of facilities. 6 day work weeks. Agency has done an awful job of staffing. They were putting new hires in places like Chicago approach, Atlanta approach, SoCal approach and very few were making it. Tons of training will mentally exhaust you.

Putting the mid at the front was floated some, but i think the agency killed that because it made you only available for one possible day of overtime instead of 2.

I have had the occasional nap on my break. I'm talking the 20 minute variety as i don't condone hours of sleep. Helped me tremendously. Seen that happen more than once. Trust me, you would rather have a controller with a short nap on break than a drowsy one with a scope full of airplanes.

Some places are having calls made every 30 minutes, although thats still plenty of time to doze off. 2 people is about the surest way to combat it, not that i am a big fan of that. But then i never fell asleep on a mid.

These folks aren't working 8 hour shifts. They're working 12 hour shifts. So should we make them work 14 hours now. Still expect them to drive home, eat, shower, spend time with family, run errands, etc. and still get enough sleep? Be for real, people! This is why it's a big deal. I defy anyone to sit in a dark tower (they need lights dimmed low to visually monitor air traffic), stare at a computer screen, while working a shift this long, after being rotated from another shift. The employers are to blame for expecting anyone to be able to do this without ever falling asleep.

12 hour shifts?? I don't know where you are getting that information from, but ATC only works a max of 8 hours and then have to have a required minimum of 8 off before their next shift..They knew getting into this career field that there were rotating shifts since the schedules haven't changed much over 30 years and folks have done it with no complaints (or for the most part). There are quick turn around shifts with 8 hours in between, but your body adjusts to it. I have worked the same "quick turn" shift for 9 years and have no problems. Common sense, if you know you have a quick turn shift, GO TO BED AND TAKE A NAP WHEN YOU GET OFF YOUR DAY SHIFT!! Don't expect to come to work and get "night differential" for sleeping 5 hours out of your 8 hour shift! There are alot of other career fields (that get paid alot less than the $60k - $120K a year that controllers do) and they stay away all night and do their jobs.. If you can't stay awake, find another job!!

I am on call 24/7,when i get a call my shift could be anywhere from 6 to 15 hours on duty so dont tell me about working long hours.

i am in crew transport and know what it means and how important it is to have lives in your hands,I take my job very seriously and so should they,and i dont need no damn union to protect me.

At first I was upset with the management for setting up these stupid work schedules. Then I remembered these are Union contract rules. So the rank and file must have thought it was a good idea.

Personaly, I would not take a job where I had to work every shift every week. Thats just asking for trouble.

We do rotate our shifts. We work 12hr shifts and we do rotate. But at least it for 2 months per shift so you can adapt.

Oh and CQ duty in the Army is not the same. Any one can pull one 24 hr shift a month then get the next day off to sleep.

Roland...crew transport, you probably work for a outfit like PTI. You may not need a union but your pay and benefits are abysmal.

I've had drivers that I've had to stop and have relieved because they were falling asleep at 65 MPH. They took their jobs seriously also and they caught naps while waiting. You can't work 16-20 hours a day and stay alert!

It's too bad you have to work so long to makes meet...maybe a union would help you.

Man you people that keep asking the same stupid questions need to read the articles. The rotating shifts are there because airports have varying schedules. If someone works first shift all week compared to another person working 2nd shift all week, their work loads are going to be drastically different. To the suggestion that they should stay on their shifts for 2 months at a time, that could work.

The nap idea isnt such a big deal, put a third person in the tower and have a rotating 2.5 hour nap period for each operator that works the graveyard shift. They could also change how their shifts overlap so their is an extra contoller for the first and last 2 hours of the graveyard shift.

9 Hours between shifts? for this occupation?

GALLUP NEWS SERVICE

PRINCETON, NJ -- Gallup's annual Work and Education survey finds that American workers report spending an average of 46 minutes commuting to and from work in a typical day. Workers at higher income levels and those who work at least 40 hours per week tend to have longer commutes than others.

So assuming the AC spends an hour in commute, an hour to wake, shower, and eat breakfast, before going to work in the morning. An hour spending quality time with the family. Now this person will have 6 hours to sleep, if he manages his day effectively. Does any one else think this insane for any worker, let alone a worker that is critical to the safety, and welfare of our public?

I am not completely defending the AC who falls asleep on the job, but this is a symptom, not the problem. Address the issue, treat our workers with dignity and like they are, well, Human.

The problem is pretty clear from the headline of this latest article. This air traffic controller was caught watching a movie when he was supposed to be working and, even worse, has an open mike that was blocking his hearing incoming calls. In any other place but a union shop, this bozo would have been fired on the spot and his supervisor likely demoted if not fired also. With the strength of their union, all that happened to these two is that they were suspended. When the furor over the story dies down they will both likely be reinstated to their six figure jobs with no further action taken. This recent rash of incidents being reported does not mean that these things have not been occurring for some time, just that the FAA has been able to cover it up pretty well until just recently. I hate to generalize, but it seems that there is a pervasive attitude with these controllers that they can get away with pretty much anything on the overnight shift because there are no senior managers around to say anything. The only supervisor, if there even is one, is a first line managers who is not likely to take action to get his buddy fired. The more I hear about these incidents that are not related to falling asleep while being on duty alone at night, the more I think it is an attitude issue, not a lack of rest issue that is causing the sleeping problems.

Two Things-

1) This sudden "epidemic" of sleeping and movie watching AC's appears to be just a union ploy to get more dues paying members on the payroll.

2) If it's not a union ploy (and even if it is) an easy, cost effective solution is the "dead man's alarm" used in numerous plants where there is only one operator on a shift. Every 15 minutes (you pick the interval) the "dead man alarm" must be reset by the operator to verify they are awake or alive. If not reset an audible alarm goes off that definitely will wake you. If the audible is not answered within a specified period of time a remote alarm in a 24h/day manned space (i.e. airport security) is signaled and someone is sent to investigate. NO ADDITIONAL PAID PERSONNEL NEEDED>

They should add personnel, but just cut the salaries of the current ATCs in half to pay for the new people. Clearly, the large wages these ATCs are making to do their job isn't cutting it. Cut their salaries drastically and hire more people.

If you haven't fallen asleep after a 16 hr shift, good for you, but you just may be lucky. I would prefer you not drive home after a 16 hour shift. It's scary enough without having to worry about workaholics like yourself who think that sleeping is merely a luxury.

I agree. Driving like that is almost as bad as driving drunk, if not just as bad. This is one reason I wish we had more quality mass transit in the States. There are some instances where people are better off not driving, and would be better served having an alternate means to get home. This is most certainly one of those cases.

Oh, so you stayed awake allll 16 hours, but killed yourself and/or somebody else falling asleep at the wheel. How do you debate this issue when people make such stupid remarks! Hope your family is proud of you.

pelletman-3284469

Not everyone has a choice about overtime! It is mandatory in many companies. Jobs are not plentiful, his choices are to tough it out or quit and go on welfare. So yes, I am sure his family is proud of him, for doing the best he can!

Happened to me after a midnight shift in the tower. Fell asleep at a red light on the way home at 7 a.m.

The human body needs sleep. If it is deprived of sleep it will fall asleep on its own.

Rotating shifts are not good for the human body.

I suggest the folks who are so critical of the air traffic controllers try it sometime.

The update to the article brings to light one of the most serious problem with air traffic control --- outdated equipment. When the ATC's went on (illegal) strike under Reagan, they were portrayed as having only increased pay and benefits as their reason. But that was never the truth. The pay and benefits issues has already been resolved (in favor of the Controllers by binding arbitration.)

What the Controllers went on strike for were personnel issues, especially involuntary overtime and insufficient manning, and outdated radar and communications systems. The radars were old Korean-War-vintage tube-type radars and the tubes were continually burning out and were extremely difficult and expensive to replace. The communications were the single-channel WWI type in which any open mike disabled ALL transmission on the frequency. That is when any one person talks, everybody listens until he is done. This causes communications to be missed because there is no way to tell if you are transmitting or if someone has "stepped on" your transmission.

The Reagan administration could not upgrade the systems or even provide better staffing because they has taken all the money out of the Airports and Airways Trust Fund and spent it on SDI (Star Wars) leaving only an IOU behind. They did not want to admit it publicly because they had also looted the Social Security and the Highways and Roadways Trust Fund. A total of about $1.3 trillion was spent on Star Wars "off the budget." (No accounting has ever been made of that money and it produced no worthwhile result.)

The ATC radars were eventually upgraded somewhat spottily under Clinton. There are still old radars out there and many airports where the local TV channels have better Doppler weather radars than they have.

But the communications problems have never been addressed. The communications failures described with the ATC who was broadcasting a DVD was the problem that was considered to be a primary cause of the greatest air disaster in history --- in the Canary Islands in 1977 in which over 500 people were killed.

There is absolutely no reason why our towers should not be sufficiently staffed and there is no reason why adequate tracking and weather radars are not available. But above all, there is no reason why ancient communications technology is still used in the most critical part of air traffic control - radio communications. In this day and age, multiplexed two-way layered multichannel digital communications is the norm. But for our airliners and controllers it's still "Roger, over."

Perhaps we should schedule them from 12 - 2 and from 3 - 6 and let them take a nap from 2 - 3.. but they should NOT be paid for their nap... same thing with smoke breaks... they should punch out for that. I always hated that my coworkers could go take a 15 min smoke break and get paid for it and because I'm actually health conscious and don't smoke. Could I take a 15 min fresh air break? no. If they want to take a nap, they need to clock out... and someone else needs to be there to cover up for them.

m

Do you really think that the scientists didn't think of your very simplistic solution. The fact is that people tend to fall asleep during night shifts and if they get about 45 minutes for a nap they are more alert and airline travel is safer. It's only a small modification in the work schedule. They are already getting a meal break and a couple of other short breaks during their work shift. Right?

don, actually they may not be getting a few short breaks and a lunch break

Sure. Because you don't think it is fair that they get a nap or 2 in during the shift paid. You don't get one so why should they. Damn everyone in the air it is the principle of the matter. No work no pay. Oh how the intelligence in the world is getting scarce.

You are right, I don't get to take a nap on the job. I am also not responsible for the lives of hundreds of people. ATC is constantly rated as one of, if not the highest, most stressful jobs in the country. If a short nap means that these people will be alert and be able to effectivley coordinate the thousands and thousands of planes in the air everyday then I am on board. Face it, some jobs are much more important and more demanding than others, such as, oh I don't know, ATCs.

Every ATC knew what the conditions of the job were before they took it. If they no longer care to abide by those conditions, they can leave anytime...there are thousands waiting to take their place. None will leave because the pay and benefits are too good.

I'm surprised that we haven't heard if there is an hours of service limitation on how long they can work and mandatory minimum time off between shifts. Train crews, motor coach and truck drivers all have limits...I can't believe people in these critical positions don't have them also!

Have any of you people ever worked the night shift? And I mean not staying up late one night. I worked swing shift for many years. 8 hours on days for seven days, 8 hours a day on the afternoon shift, then 8 hours per day on the midnight shift and 12 hours a shift on weekends for midnights and days. These people and scientist have no clues. One, is that you need to make sure you get your full 8 hours of sleep at home. Sleeping about 45 minutes just before leaving for work helps a lot. Have the shifts start at 4:30 am for the day shift, 1:30 pm for the afternoon shift, and 9:30 pm for the midnight shift. Most people get really tired about 5 am in the morning or soon after. I do not know if the controllers work swing shift or not, but working straight shifts and not rotating is a plus. Not one of you can understand unless you have worked the swing shift before.

Have any of you people ever worked the night shift?

what do you think try doing underway replenishment and you tell me.

Don't these workers have break times? If this person is the only person on duty who covers the worker for coffee break and meal breaks?

If these are unpaid breaks why can't the worker take a nap in their own unpaid break time?

If the break is unpaid the company has no say in what the person does within that unpaid time providing it is not something illegal ie a criminal act.....

What does not amaze me is some of the hardhearted mean selfish statement by some posters regarding this issue...... which is quite sad really that some of us are no longer shocked by the more negative statements being made.

It is almost as if it is to be expected, and shows the low level this country has sunk to as evidenced by these teabaggeconservativerepublicans and their hardline view of what the masses in this country are worth or should be treated.

No wonder these conservativeteabaggerrepublicans do not want unions in this country and see not need for them..... so they can skru the masses with impunity with no push back.

Maximum work hours for a shift is 10 hours. Maximum between shifts used to be 8 hours, now it is 9 hours after all of this press. No breaks for the mid shift for 1 man towers and we eat while working.

mjohn, paperwork for a shift doesn't take but maybe 15 minutes at most. usually 5. Not having something to occupy the time is in fact a huge problem in my opinion. Not allowed to read, radio, tv, crossword anything to keep an attention span going between aircraft, which could be hours.

Where in the world did you get the part that the second person was overpaid?

I suspect with the high IQ shown in that comment your coworkers (if there are any) would think that you were overpaid!

This seems like a no-brainer to me. The current rules of conduct are making things worse. Therefore, figure it out and find more realistic ways of operating. I can't imagine a job in which I am not allowed to do anything but stare at a blank screen for 9 to 10 hours, can't take a power nap on my own (required) lunch break, am not allowed to read or watch tv or do a crossword, AND on top of that may only have 8 hours before I have to return to work and stare at a blank screen.

It has been known for at least 50 years that changing shifts is very bad on a person's health, and that it is very difficult for a person to be at their most sharp when they constantly change shifts, so why would we do that for a position that is so critical?

I blame the knotheads in charge .. and that means the FAA heads who hand out idiotic and dangerous rules and can't bother to notice that it is their own rulings that are putting us into more danger! The shifts are too long, and ANY office manager I've ever known has encouraged all their personnel to take lunch breaks and get away from the office because they will be sharper when they return. This is NOT new knowledge! It is in fact against the law, last I knew, to require someone to eat at their desk. AND ... I have never even had a job that would tell me I can't nap during a break.

Since the FAA evidently thinks they need robots at the controls, maybe they'd better get busy and hire some!

Mark-384387, I don't think the major difficulty is the "swing shift", although I agree with your take on it. I don't think the swing shift is any more problematic than any other shift, if that is something you work all the time and you have had enough time off to eat and rest before returning to work. I am more concerned with the idea that almost any employer in the US is required to give two breaks and a lunch break if their employee has an 8-hour shift, and that even the lowly receptionist is normally encouraged to get away for at least a half hour ... BECAUSE it actually will make the employee more alert and increase productivity!

So why, in a job that is so critically important to LIVES, do we have such idiotic rules? Yay for the Republican ideals ... let's just all lie down and let them tromp on us.

Biden was caught sleeping at Obama's address the other day!

So was over half of America

Given that it is the Republicans who are trying to scru the people at the bottom of the ladder, and are proving it in Wisconsin (in fact are blatantly proud of it), your comments are pretty lame.

I guess you missed the part about their horrible scheduling. But hey, who cares about a few lives, eh? Oh what...a major plane crash?? Controller was dead on his feet tired? Lazy union workers!!

horrible scheduling

??

8 hours on, 8 hours off. Yea, such a demand.

Another would allow controllers to sleep during the 20-minute to 30-minute breaks they typically receive while working daytime shifts.

Let them nap during their breaks but quit complaining about having to work 8 hours. If they don't like the job, then quit.

P.s. - My sister is an AC and she doesn't have napping issues.

Julie

You just don't get it, do you? This is a safety issue ..... safety of the flying public. It is not about union workers complaining about their conditions. It is about having an alert air traffic controller in the tower when the plane on which YOU travel is taking off or landing.

Your response is typical of closed minded, uninformed people who falsely believe you have "common sense." You know one person who has no problem therefore there is no problem. It's like the smokers who say that tobacco poses no health problem because George Burns smoked cigars and lived to age 100. News flash ...... that's not science. Of course that makes no difference because you obviously think you know more than the scientists that studied this problem.

Did you know that airline flight crews are allowed scheduled naps during flights? That work change was the result of a similar scientific study and, guess what? IT WORKS!

Julie said: "8 hours on, 8 hours off. Yea, such a demand."

So, Julie, you are perfectly fine with people in life critical jobs having a schedule lke this on a regular basis? (Note I said regular bais... not once in a while) You DO realize, don't you, that that is 8 hours and only eight hours you are away from work... That isnt 8 hours of total rest. I don't know about you & where you live & work, but in the metropolitan area where I work, the average commute is 60 minutes. Now since most folk prefer to eat something after they get off work, that adds another 45 minutes (if you grab fast food) to two hours.. If you cook it yourself. Lets average it at an an hour and 15 minutes. Then there is getting up, showered & groomed for the day. I can do this in 20 minutes... but I am a bald man that grew up in a boarding school where 5 minute showers were the norm. Lets average that time to about 45 minutes. Most people I know also want to grab a cup of coffee or have a light breakfast before they go to work... you know your brain works better when its nourished...so there is another 30 minutes. Now its time for that 60 minute drive to work.

You know what Julie... that 8 hours off just became only 4 hours in bed. And again, I dont know about you, but even when I'm tired after a hard days work I usually dont fall asleep the minute my head hits the pillow. So in reality, thats only 3.75 hours of meaningful sleep.

Are you beginning to see a problem with this? Pretty soon the normal human body is going to say "ENOUGH!" and it will put you to sleep.

I dont want my life, or that of my family, friends and neighbors entrusted into the hands of a person who regularly is forced to endure that. At some point a tragic accident will occur.

We need to quit making the controllers out to be lazy self-absorbed cry babies and realize that in this situation they are not in control. It is a SYSTEM PROBLEM, and it is the SYTEM that needs to be addressed and repaired.

You people need to pull your head out of the ground (or your rear ends). If the ATC guys cannot stay awake at night - fire them. I spend 20 years in the Navy, and if I ever caught a watch or lookout sleeping on duty - he or she would lose 2 months pay to start. Then I would 'motivate' this person to improve. And for many years - the Navy was so undermanned that we ran port & starboard watches (6 on / 6 off). And I can tell you that doing 12 hours of watch per day and 6 hours of actual work (and then 6 hours of sleep) may be hard - but it is doable.

You say that it is hard to stay awake for 8 hours - boo hoo. If you can't do the job - quit. I am sure that there are adults out there who can do it.

Interested Observer: I'll bet that in your 20 years in the Navy (Thank you for your service BTW) the way certain jobs were done changed or evolved. SOP's were revised. New data became available.

Just because something CAN be done in a certain way for a certain amount of time does not mean it is the BEST way to do it or that it should be continued if new and better data support a change.

Right now we have that new data. The current way ATC's are scheduled and work DOES NOT WORK. Quit blaming the human factor when science has shown that they really dont have the control and ability that you claim you have & they should have. Quit thinking that treating a symptom will cure the disease.

Where do you work? Wallstreet? Hell, why aren't anyone complaining about how wallstreet and banks f*#@! everyone billions of dollars. Hell, all the money used to bail out these companies could have paid off everyones mortgage that was in default! We would have been better off, because theses people would still have a home and some money to go out and spend in the economy. Plus these same people would be grateful and want to pay more to the government. So that money would have gone back where it came from. The banks kept the money. We are going to squabble over paid naps to insure safety.

Interested Observer, it's a waste of time trying explain this to don & EMDF. I'm retire military too (Army) and have pull 24, 36, and (once) 54 straight frilling hours w/o a frickin nap!

I wonder if either don or EMDF even know someone who is a ATC.

Again, we're back to the entitled generation, government nanny, and people who think being an American means that they should have an easy life w/o any responsibilities or work on their part.

don & EMDF, you might want to watch the Web cast of the NBC Nightly News. Specifically the ATC that was on and his comments, "sleeping is reprehensible"

Julie

I'm sure that you feel very righteous and very responsible as you rant about punishing the guilty and pontificating about the "easy life" that you imagine air traffic controllers are seeking. Your approach to this problem, this public safety problem, is to drive away anyone who cannot stay awake during a night shift, a night shift that may have been preceded by minimal sleep due to an 8-on, 8-off shift sequence, noisy neighbors or any of a multitude of reasons for sleep deprivation. Certainly you feel very righteous when you see someone who was sleeping on the job fired.

The problem with your approach and your thinking is that your remedies are all punishments AFTER the sleeping on the job has already occurred, perhaps when people have died as a result of that system failure. As a retired safety professional I understand that the key to safety is PREVENTION. Firing a sleeper will perhaps prevent a reoccurrence of the behavior of THAT employee, but not necessarily overall problem of people with public safety responsibilities falling asleep. Short naps during a work shift have been proven to solve this serious safety problem. Certainly air traffic controllers already have meal breaks, bathroom breaks and other time away from performance of their duties during their shift. This "nap solution" works for pilots, hospital night shifts and other occupations and the safety of other people is enhanced.

Punish the "guilty" if you must, but the adult approach to the problem is prevention, and that is exactly what the naps are designed to accomplish.

"And I can tell you that doing 12 hours of watch per day and 6 hours of actual work (and then 6 hours of sleep) may be hard - but it is doable"

"I'm retire military too (Army) and have pull 24, 36, and (once) 54 straight frilling hours w/o a frickin nap!"

good for you, maybe you should get a medal! I too can stay awake for 36 hours, do I want to be controlling airplanes, NOPE! absolutely not. If you feel comfortable flying the busy eastern sea board area with controllers who have been awake for 24, 36, 54 straight hours, good luck, it's been nice knowing you!

If one of your family members DIED in a mid-air 'cause a controller missed something, because he was awake for 36 hours straight hours you would say "it's OK he's American, tough, a real man/woman cause they stayed awake soooo long!" AHHH NO, you would be outraged! it would be CRIMINAL! get your head outta' your a$$ and give your head a shake!

Thats unions for you!

After a long strike on the company I worked for, the management gave in offering my union Monday thru Fridays off, working Saturday and Sunday for 40 hours pay. The union came back saying "we're not giving up our weekends".

I worked 20 years in a union company and 25 with no unions. The latter was the best. 99% of the protection was for the lazy, worthless employes. The company closed the doors on 10,000 workers. The union officers, most with less time on the job then me, were allowed to move to another plant in the same company. The union took 20 years of my dues and screwed me out of my job. Now that very union is buying their way into liberal politicians campaigns so they can get more workers for more dues to do the same things over again.

Reagan busted ATC unions in the 80's! These aren't unions, you dufasses!!!!!

there is a union but membership is not mandatory.

I always find people funny who said that they should just adjust or whatever. You can't adjust, if you're tired, you may conk out at any time, its not a question of character, its you're body who pulls the switch, that's why so many people fall asleep at the wheel. Those people who insist on saying there's no problem here are the same going behind the wheel when they're tired and then conking out killing someone (most times themselves).

If you can keep you're mind active, It will be easier not conk out, but even then, you're cognition and judgement is impaired and you make more mistakes. How many work accidents have happened because of shift work, countless!!

Try staring at a blank screen in the middle of night for 3-4 hours with nothing but the hum of computers behind you. Do nothing else, because you're not allowed to do anything else. See how easy that will be, make sure to rotate your waking schedule to make the experience truly interesting.

There's very few jobs, probably none, that exist where you alternate from zero stimulus for hours to intense stimulation for a short while, then back again doing nothing. Even firemen can do something while they are waiting.

That they knew what they were getting into has nothing to do with it since falling asleep is not a conscious decision.

I hope you are on the plane that goes down because you were to cheap. By the way read other comments. Plenty of nurses said they get naps. So does the doctor. Give me a break. People make comments as if they know everything.

The docs and nurses arent sitting in a quiet dark room by themselves for hours on end. That makes it a little more difficult to stay awake, especially when you were only able to get 5 hours of sleep that day because you just got off another shift.

"I hope you are on the plane that goes down because you were to cheap."

You mean like Lexington?

"Yet a controller who has to manage 3 or 4 flights on his night shift"

I'm not not sure where you get your stats but I work a heck of a lot more than that, Closer to 50, and that's just the first hour.

"There are a lot of occupations where people work at night, especially in the medical field."

That's true but they have a busy 'physical' job. Being able to move around keeping yourself occupied would certainly help; but nope, we just sit there staring at a screen. Try staring at a computer monitor for 6 hours at 3 in the morning, tell me if you start to feel tired.

It's the mental fatigue that's hard to fight. There are plenty of studies that show ones ability to perform mental tasks deteriorates very quickly when one is fatigued. If you want a safe system, add more staffing or even allow naps while on breaks. Other countries do this and it validates the studies, rest=performance. If you want to risk your life flying using risk management, then let's start letting truckers to drive 36 straight hours, or maybe even your pilot. All it will take is one major accident, maybe with one of your loved ones, to change your attitude; and that would be tragic for all!

Letusreason? REASON? Do you not comprehend a difference between walking around and doing a myriad of things during a shift as being just a TAD different from sitting and staring at a screen for 8 hours and not being allowed to even take a lunch break away from it? And this, after having had 8 hours off, which by the time you drive home and try to eat something and possibly even take a shower, may mean you have six hours to sleep.

Further, IF your imaginative "3 or 4 flights" a night were even true, that would mean staring at a BLANK SCREEN for most of 8 hours, and you think you could do that and not doze off? Really? REALLY?

It just doesn't matter to alot of people. I just got suspended because I dosed off. I had just found out I had sleep apnea. I was told I understand, but we still can't accept that as an excuse. F- some people. I retire in 6 years anyway. Thanks for the vacation. Now I know, if I feel like I can fall asleep on a shift I call in sick get paid (it is a medical problem) and I have plenty of sick time to burn. I can call in sick on avg. twice a pay period for 6 years. So when I call in sick it will cost them time and a half.

Actually Lee doctors typically get to nap when things are not busy after they have been at work for a certain amount of hours. Just sayin'.

@lee, I would really prefer a doc who is fully alert. You are, of course entitled to your preference. BTW in long operations they do work in teams.

Many times there are surgical teams if it is going to be a long surgery, so the docs switch off. Secondly they are in a well lit room with noise and other people.

NO ONE should be on the clock while sleeping. Work six hours and get paid for six. Then go home. If you can only handle four, then work four and then go home or back to the party. Keep the pay rate/hour the same. This will keep their eyes open. If you need a two hour nap, work three, sleep for two, work three more, get paid fox six total, and then go home. DO NOT EXPECT to be paid while sleeping.

I don't know what you do but a lot of jobs allow breaks during the 8 hour work day. Do we now say no breaks? Eight hours work for 8 hours of pay? On these breaks would it not be fair to let the employee nap if they chose to? It is their break.

How long did it take you to come up with that comment? Bad bad bad

Not far off. Flight Tracker and a few phone numbers and I'll cover nights from home - for half price.

i believe the drugs that came up with this comment would keep you up all week

I was not a controller but in the military I knew several ATC guys. They told me that they never work more than 6 hours at one time and never more than 3 days in a row. If the military realizes that ATCs are under extremely high stress and cannot be expected to work efficiently over long periods of time with little time off, then why cant the civilian sector catch on?

You still dragging PATCO's name through the mud?

Hmmmmm I hope you are never actually put in a situation of importance....

simple solutions come from simple minds.

Shear boredom is correct. Lots of things are banned from reading to radios, tv's etc that would keep ones attention between aircraft. May go 4 hours with nothing, depending on the airport.

Especially nurses.

Yes, the rotating shift idea must have been hatched by someone who doesn't knowhow it can mess up your brain. The key is to have some kind of rest cycle.

It seems as though it is one or the other. Higher more ATCs or allow them more time to rest. Take your pick.

Or they weren't out partying, they just got 5 hours of sleep before they had to go work a graveyard shift.