Is the "necessity defense" a valid defense in cases of attacks on abortion providers?

Do you consider yourself more sane than the person that committed this crime?

It's now 88.6% that thinks it is wrong. However, what is the difference between what that piece of scum did and if we kill him in retribution?

Maxxx

Please tone it down. This is the United States of America and we have due process of law FOR ALL.

As you point out, the defendant admitted the crime and that will speed up due process a bit.

Let's just hope that he was properly Mirandized before he confessed.

Lock him up and toss away the key! Oh, and do the same to anyone who comes out and supports this murderer!

This crime was not only premeditated, this guy killed the doctor in a church. This guy deserves the same compassion he showed his victim.

Execute him and put it on pay per view.

It has been said "An eye for an eye simply makes you both blind". While reason and common sense went far out the window with this man, we must, as a group cope with this person.

Personally I think it abortion is such a hot topic because it allows the ultra religious an avenue to advance religious views in a large scale. The counter group is not so much "for abortion" as it is "against religious constraints".

When a person becomes a person, or if they are now, should make no difference if you believe it is wrong.

Amazing how it's always the "pious" that look to violence as a first resort.

This guy would have had a better case pleading insanity. He didn't try to hide anything and certainly thought what he was doing was right. To me, that's textbook insane.

I believe we are witnessing the decline of religion in the world. Between the Christians & Muslims both of whom have very long histories of violence and oppression it's refreshing to see the decline.

I'd like to see an end to all public education, all tax credits for kids, any kind of public support that forces me (a single person with no kids) to have to pay to raise other people's kids.

On the day that this nation stops forcing me to pay to raise other people's kids, I will then support a movement to make abortion illegal.

I think that's a perfectly fair deal.

John Brown must be turning in his grave. He killed people because he thought he was morally right. He is a hero now. The majority of Americans supported slavery then. They did not latter fight over it. If it was over slavery. Then Kentucky and others would of supported the South.

Umm NO! While I think the abortion rights attack group is flawed on so many fronts, from scientific to religious the trial by public opinion is wrong on an equal number of fronts. Too often trials are now held on U-Tube and the entertainment shows disguised as news programs without all the relavant facts being presented. Me I am for a law MANDATING ALL discussion of upcoming trials be illegal and anyone who "reports" (and I use that term loosely) on ANY upcoming trial should be charged with obstructing justice. As for the abotrion issue until I see signs saying "I will pay for you and your embryo's living and medical treatment and then legally adopt the embryo at birth" or I see EVERY unwanted child adopted by the so called religious people who oppose abortion on religious grounds than I am forced to support the abortion laws in this country.

I think it's sad that you want to kill to make it all okay. There are other ways to get your point across.

I partially agree with Karri-M. No death penalty for this nutjob -- he deserves to suffer more than that. Lock him up for the rest of his pathetic life.

I would

Amazing isn't it? Our ancestors (or some of our ancestors) fled religious oppression in England, and now their ancestors are trying to shove THEIR religion down OUR throats.

And they don't even see the irony of their own ignorant actions.

blue hawk follows, right on: I saw a sign: "The message Jesus was teaching was good, it's his followers that are frightening."

and to continue, Snipers and the military that are trained to kill the enemy. Shoud we take them out one by one because they may kill innocent women who may be pregnant? Where do we draw the line?

BewaretheJabber - excellent and concise point - where will it end. I think a lot of people don't deserve to share the air I breathe (namely, a-holes that hurt children and animals for no other reason than they like it OR are driven to do it).

I would go to prison, though, because they weren't attacking ME.

Our "rights" to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ONLY GO AS FAR AS THE BORDERS OF THE NEXT CITIZEN'S RIGHTS.

As abortions are legal, he should have FIRST needed (for a "necessity defense" to have murdered the legislators that created the laws, the jurists that upheld the constitutionality of the laws, the licensing board members that allowed the doctor to perform the procedures, ad nauseum).

But the people that ever think murder is justifiable for anything other than IMMEDIATE protection threatened life (guy's coming after you RIGHT NOW with a weapon, you're being drowned or strangled RIGHT NOW, etc.)... they tend to not see the ensuing chaos their ethos would engender.

Keep up the sound thinking!

Pray for the deluded masses (oh yeah, there are MASSES of them out there).

I don't like you.

The truth hurts...HA!

Please disregard my previous comment. That is false, I do not dislike you. I dislike Tedd.

Birth control methods can never be 100% effective Becky, thats why abortion is a valid method, however not a first line method. It is no more murder than amputating a leg is. The cells of the leg are living, yes, as are the cells of a fetus. Abortion, like amputation, however unwanted, is sometimes necessary. No one wants to have an abortion the same way as no one wants to have an amputation.

What about rape or incest where the woman (or girl) has no control of the situation?

Beckie

What YOU SEEM TO FORGET is the fact that IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS how other women think or believe. YOU ARE NOT GOD.

PERIOD.

Doesn't God say to take the sty out of your own eye before taking it out of another person's eye?

I suggest you go do that before posting any more nonsense on this board.

Incorrect, Beckie. Simple mistake, that. Until the baby is out of the womb its not murder, its just an operation like any other.

Actually I have a question for those who oppose the legal abortion of an embryo. If a mother smokes, or takes drugs, or eats excessive fats and sugars, (all which have been linked to unerweight babies and still births) and the baby is still born, of if ANY child is still born, and you think an embryo (incapable of living outside the mother) is a human should the grieving mother who just lost her child be charged with murder or just manslaughter? What about a spontaneous abortion that occurs early before the mother is aware she is pregnant is that murder or manslaughter? If you call ANY combination of reproducing human cells human than these are the real questions. me I prefer the definition that if the embryo is viable and can survive outside the mothers womb and become a rational human than it is human until such time it is no more thana random collection of cells.

As usual there is NEVER a real answer to this question... **Sigh** one day perhaps someone will answer it and then I can support a fight against abortion but right now I am still forced to support a woman's right to control what goes into and out of her own body.

To Karen in LA:

Foaming at the mouth and mis-quoting passages out of context degrade your argument, and merely serve to illuminate a lack of knowledge on your part.

The passage you refer to says to remove the plank from your eye, so that you can see to remove the speck from your brother's eye. It's talking about hypocrisy, not judgment.

If actions are never to be judged, how do we establish laws? And how do you determine whose laws are best? Where did you get your value system, and on what grounds is it better than Beckie's? Because your opinion is shared by a simple majority? Using that logic, I guess slavery shouldn't have been abolished when it was.

1) Wipe foam from mouth. 2) Close it for more than a few seconds 3) Listen to the other side, instead of attacking unprovoked.

Thank you.

With every abortion, there is a story we don't know. It's a sad story. We want' to look at that person who has had one and condemn her and yet we have failed to know her and why she is choosing such a choice. Instead of looking at her with a condeming spirit, we could show her some sympathy, talk to her and maybe educate her, show her some other options. We should do it in a loving and non-judgemental way. We ask her to care for that living being inside her yet no one has taken care of her or shown her any kindness. Shame on you for getting pregnant, for being easy and all around she is looked at in a very disaproving manner. Why should she give birth to a baby when she feels as the it's hopeless. Until we've walked her shoes it's presumptuous and we are very uniformed to make such a judgement. Christians need to be non-judgemental, inclusive and have their arms open to everyone. That's including sinners, people of different faiths and beliefs. They are all God's children and should be treated as such. It's a shame that there are people out there who think it was okay or somehow justified the murder of that doctor. We are not soldiers of God, we are followers. We need to follow it properly and nicely.

Polls say that 95 % of all abortions are done as a matter of convenience.

Please list source, your full of @!$%#. 94% of all statistics are made up on the spot and just come from people like you pulling a number out of their ass.

No, Skip it's 95% of Mother's use JIF

These zealots are just like Muslim extremists. No difference. They need to be greeted with the same force, too.

Skip's a troll. Read post 3.4 for some real information.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

here's the stats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Reasons_for_abortions

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904509.html

this states that only 13,000 abortions each year are performed because of rape.

in the year 2000 1.31 million abortions were performed in the US>

wow that is a lot of 'women's lives at risk' !!

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

http://www.mrdata.net/books/9reasons.htm

this sit states that 4,000 abortions are perfomed each day in the us.

Shame on all those rapists!

My only disagreement, besides with the tone, is the fact you believe it your decision alone. Asz a man I feel I have every right to decide if my child is to be born or not, you might not want it, but (assuming no rape here) it was an action you willing took. If I want the child why should your rights triumph over mine? If it comes to term you feel there is a right for you to sue me for support so I should have the right to raise this child myself even if you do not want it. I should have to cover your medical expenses and any other losses you might suffer because of the birth (lost wages etc) but I deserve the right to make decisions on my child also. If we both want to raise it or have it aborted- fine have it done and split the costs, if you want to raise it and I don't fine you should and I should be absolved from responsibillity, if I want to raise it and you do not you should also be absolved of all responsibility after the childs birth and I should (as explained above) cover the costs incurred during that birth. But in no case should you be the only one entitled to make decisions on my child! Just a man's perspective.

Back to the bottom line. It makes no difference how impregnation happens. The issue is, who has the right to make decisions that are so personal and very private. And for you religious, we were taught God gives us free will. In that event, who are you to overstep that precept? Above God? The decision belongs to the woman period.

earth to earthgirl...

God gave us free will... and also set down some rules. The mention of said rules by another human does not invalidate them because you don't like them.

While you're contemplating this subject, I'd suggest taking a minute of your time to thank your mother for not aborting YOU.

np3228: Isn't it interesting how so many of these supposed "rules" always involve forcing women, the poor, or gays to go against their own best interests?

People always talk about the dictates of organized religion, and never pause to wonder who it was organized by, or for what purpose, or what the organizers themselves got out of the deal.

Perhaps you should start wondering?

Wake up.

Elistra,

Let's examine your points, shall we?

1)"..."rules" always involve forcing women, the poor, or gays to go against their own best interests"

Wrong on all counts. In Exodus, God commands the Israelites to care for foreigners, widows, and the poor. In Matthew, we are told to "give to him who asks of you..." While you can point to individuals not living up to these commands, claiming they don't exist is... uninformed. Or perhaps misinformed.

Regarding women, people like to throw around the passage "wives, submit to your husbands". They leave out the fact that this is directed towards Christians, and goes on to say in the next verse that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church, and to give their lives for them. Whose interests are being protected there, I wonder?

As for homosexuality, the Bible is clear that it is a sin, listing it among many others... and at the end, it says "...which some of you were." The lists of sins in the Bible includes everything from adultery, stealing, gossip, slander, or even just being disobedient to parents.

The reason sexual sin receives special attention is that it destroys us internally. "All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body." (1 Cor 6:1). Look at how it ruins lives - STDs, children out of wedlock, broken families, broken hearts, bitter divorces. Among the LGBT community, STDs, depression, drug use, and infidelity are especially high. How does any of that serve a 'best interest'? Who exactly wins in that situation? But society, in supposed act of compassion towards all, says "let everyone do what they want, so they'll be happy", and turns a blind eye to the mess it creates. It's like cheering someone on who repeatedly hits his head with a hammer, then criticizing the person who tells them it might not be a good idea. How dare he be discouraged from causing permanent damage, right?

2) "...never pause to wonder who it was organized by..." Well, logically, since God created everything, then He's the one who started it. Written by over 40 authors, spanning thousands of years of history, with a unified message. It begins with man making a mess of things. We see prophecy of God promising to send a Savior. A little further reading shows numerous accounts of this prophecy coming to fruition. Along the way, we are given laws to live by, and taught how to love each other. Regarded as truth by our founding fathers, and intellectuals throughout history... it's not exactly a kool-aid drinking, nike-wearing cult.

3) "...or for what purpose..." The purpose of the authors of the Bible is simple - to share with others the good news which they witnessed and received, so that all men could be reconciled to God.

4) "..or what the organizers themselves got out of the deal." What they got for their troubles was death. Many were crucified. Others were beaten, stoned, lanced, burned in an oven, thrown off buildings... all for believing in the fulfillment of God's promise.

I spent a good amount of time wondering and thinking - investigating things for myself. I studied many religions, and even lived without religion. In the end, nothing else even comes close to comparing to the message in the Bible. I realize you probably hold a contemptible view of religion, which is unfortunate. You should take the time to read into it yourself.

I have, and almost wish I hadn't wasted my time. A number of interesting parables, but by and large most of it is utterly worthless. Understandable, given the periods of time in which it was written, re-written, translated, re-translated, etc.

The world has grown up, why won't you?

just because the law does not consider abortion to be murder, does not mean it isn't

The death penalty is listed as homicide on a death certificate.

And, what is the difference between what this scum did and the people who would kill him in retribution?

Carmen

I am sooooo sad that you and BECKIE feel you are above it all.

If you don't want an abortion, DON'T HAVE ONE.

STOP criticizing others because YOU AND BECKIE ARE NOT GOD.

Please pray for forgiveness of your sins to the rest of us women.

Carmen

I am sooooo sad that you and BECKIE feel you are above it all.

If you don't want an abortion, DON'T HAVE ONE.

STOP criticizing others because YOU AND BECKIE ARE NOT GOD.

Please pray for forgiveness of your sins to the rest of us women.

Carmen-

"just because the law does not consider abortion to be murder doesn't mean it isn't"

In a nation of laws, which seeks law and order, it does. Your own morality may differ but the morality we share as a nation is defined by our laws. If every individual is free to put their own judgements above the law there is no nation of law. Don't like the law? change it. But don't say it doesn't apply to you.

Uh, yes, Carmen. That's exactly what it means. Read a book sometime. Or leave the country. Either works for me.

The law says abortions are legal. Now, if abortions were indeed illegal according to the law, then we have a different story.

Carmen - to ratchet down the rhetoric a little bit...

"just because the law does not consider abortion to be murder, does not mean it isn't"

That is a MORAL point, not a LEGAL one. God hates Sloth (one of the 7 deadly sins) - so get OFF your a$$ and do one of the following:

1) Become a powerful and charismatic legislator and get the law changed.

2) Start a grass roots movement that will get the law changed

3) Go through school, get a law degree, work really hard and become a Supreme Court Justice and determine the law is unconstitutional

4) Marry a Supreme Court Justice and convince him ('cuz "they" ain't gonna legalize gay marriage anytime soon, either) that the law is unconstitutional and take a case so he can make that ruling.

5) Gather evidence on all the supreme court justices and blackmail them into declaring the law unconstitutional (I mean, c'mon, if the murder was justified, what's a little extortion and blackmail between friends?)

6) HAVE A BABY THAT BECOMES KING OF THE WORLD TO CHANGE THE LAW

7) Have an immaculately conceived baby that has the power to PREVENT all abortions.

8) Sit down and have another bon bon because you don't believe in having sex with a husband unless it's specifically to procreate.

Beckie - same to you, hon.

Have you found Jesus? I did... he was behind the couch the whole time!

The very reason a woman should be able to change her mind at any time about having some ones baby.

you are exactly right, it is not ONLY her baby, the man should have say also, as it is equally his.

Of course if she chooses to have it, suddenly he is required to support it.

but she can choose to kill it and he has no say in the matter. SHAME on our government and those women!

It sure is. It is also scary how these people label themselves as being part of the "moral majority" and all for "family values". If the belief that murder is anything but immoral is considered a "family value", I want no part of it. Some day, once society grows up and matures, we will look back at debates like this and be ashamed of ourselves.

And a larger percentage voted the other way. That's scary too.

No, micrometer. That's perfectly normal. The intelligent people voted in the majority and the retards and illiterate voted yes.

Wow Carmen a point I agree with you on! I think a man, assuming DNA proves he is the father, has the right to decide if the embryo is allowed to come to term or not as well as the woman. If they both feel it is better to abort or allow it to come to term they should be allowed to do that no problem, if EITHER one OR the other think the embryo should be allowed to come to term and the other disagrees the one wishing the embryo to come to term should be responsible for all costs associated with it and the other should lose all parental rights upon the sucessful birth (or whenever the child is capable of being taken home from the birth location) forever. Period no backsies EVER. I am a man and I fully support this option!

boered1: You said it right, "I am a man..." Thank you.

No killing a child is murder aborting some reproducing random set of cells is not.

Perhaps you would be happier if the protestors confined their peaceful protests in a dark basement in the wee small hours of the night with the shades drawn, too.

The reality of abortion is ugly, and apologists try to deny it's ugliness. At the close of WW@, when GI's entered the Concentration Camps, Ike ordered that all possible pictures be taken because "someday, some son-of-a-@!$%# will try to deny this ever happened." Sure enough, nations like Iran are trying to say the Holocaust never happened.

Now I'm not calling you a son-of-a-@!$%#, Jabber, but your demand that the pro-life crowd not show the truth because it is ugly, is not very American.

There is a difference between knowing what a surgery looks like and cramming it into the faces of young children. I also wouldn't take a young child to the Holocaust museum. You do realize you are defending a murderer who killed a man in church? The 9/11 comparison is spot on. Right wing fanantics think its too difficult to get laws changed so you support domestic terrorism. Fanantical Muslims know it is too hard to combat the west 's influence in a straight forward manner so they resort to terrorism and many others support what they do as "justified" or "necessary".

Just because something is legal according to the law does not make it right.

Our government is not the supreme authority on the law.

No God is the Supremene authority and he will judge....NOT you carment stay out of peoples personal business!

"Just because something is legal according to the law does not make it right.Our government is not the supreme authority on the law.

Actually, in this country the Governmant (law enforcement and the courts) are the authority of the law. Good luck convincing anyone otherwise. But if you break the law, you face justice.

Murder is illegal

Sorry, but abortion is legal. Its not murder in the eyes of the law. Dont like the law as written and enforced? Great, get enough people to vote it out that opportunity has always been there, you just havent been able to get it done.

Its called a Democracy, not a theocracy. Moral values do not trump the law. Its a fact.

And for those playing the 'god will get justice' when you die. Fine. The law on earth is that abortion is legal.

The doctor was scum to begin with. I would never go as far as to act upon my beliefs (murder), however, as a parent of twins that were born at 26 weeks, I can't fathom how late term abortion could ever be considered. Let alone, a doctor, whom is supposed to protect and save life, can perform late term abortions. My children are healthy now and fought to survive when they were born. THey didn't have a voice when they were born, but my babies, and all babies for that matter, fight to survive. Those that defend doing late term abortions, should also be 6 feet under. A baby doesn't have a voice yet, but the first two words when they do are (Da-Da or Ma-Ma). Pretty sad when you think about it.

"Just because something is legal according to the law does not make it right. Our government is not the supreme authority on the law."

Many convicted criminals living behind bars agree , I am sure...

so you are in effect saying that you believe God thinks abortion is ok?

We do not need to speak for God, the Bible does that.

Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

Isaiah 49:1 Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Moral values do not trump the law. Its a fact.

That is not factual for Christians. We believe the Bible is the Supreme Authority, and any man made law that goes against biblical principal is not to be followed.

But he is to be murdered?

"Thou shalt not kill"

What's so hard to understand about that?

Carmen, I think your religious values are more than a little skewed. Don't remember Jesus saying, "Kill those who don't believe as I do"....or worse, "Kill those who don't believe as YOU do"

I don't support abortion except in extreme cases...but I don't support murder, either.

Christians don't believe the Bible is the Supreme Authority...you do.

Christians believe that God is the Supreme Authority. And he said, "Judge not lest ye be judged"

It's religious zealots who make the life very difficult for the rest of us to be taken seriously. It religious zealots who corrupt the Word of God to fit thier every need.

Um, Carmen, what about me... since I don't follow your God? Does that mean, since I'm exempt from the other rules, I don't have to follow that one?

Oh, no, that's right... it just makes me a 2nd class citizen and nothing I do on this earth matters because I'm going to hell, right?

What about your children, Carmen. What about that day that they question their faith and you spout scripture to them and they turn away from the fold? Does that mean that you were a wasted entry in the book because you could not "go forth and procreate" anymore followers? Will your space in the Guf be taken by the next zealot that has no true compassion for humanity - the compassion that Jesus preaches, that even though we sin, he has washed us clean of our sins with his blood?

Remember, Carmen... there was a WHOLE OTHER book after the Old Testament - you might have remembered, it's the one Jesus played center stage in.

My apologies, though, if you are Jewish and I haven't picked up on that yet.

USAF Vet, Too... you're the kind of Faithful I can get along with. Very well said.

and you are a parent? Late term abortions....are you for them? then you should have never been a parent.

Abortions period if the women chooses end of story.

Ridiculous...Why are you so closed minded to believe that your opinion is the right one and whoever disagrees with you is wrong. You may be surprised to learn that some of your closest friends and relatives had abortions. Will you shun them now? Maybe one of your children who struggles their whole life and is weaker than most is raped and chooses to end the horror. Will you be the one to judge her and say she must now also die?

My issue is late term abortion. Yes I have an issue. As a parent of preemies, I have very good personal reasons as to why. At 26 weeks old, my children fought to survive. They felt pain at 26 weeks. In the NICU, I saw 24 week old children that also felt pain. My view is correct. It's based on what I know an experienced. Late term abortion is nothing more than murder. Rape, misuse of birth control and the health of the mother, have nothing to do with late term abortion. They deliver everything except the child's head before killing the child.

He certainly deserved to die. He brutally murdered thousands of viable babies. Many late term perfect babies that would have lived if they had been born at that stage. If a woman gives birth and throws it in the garbage, we arrest her for murder or say she has a mental problem. But legally she can pay an abortionist to kill her baby at that same age, as long as the head is crushed and the brain sucked out, and its arms and legs dismembered IN the womb, it is legal. He was a sicko. A greedy murdrer with no respect for human life.

Lemmiflip

If people should not force their views on others, then any jury should not force their opinion on any defendant.

Most criminal cases are "The People vs John Doe."

Ridiculous: It appears you were looking forward to having your babies. You were blessed. Now put yourself totally in the role of a woman who, for whatever reason, does not want to be pregnant. This should give you the better picture. However, the bottom line is, no entity, government, religion, or religious group has the right to interfere in personal, private decisions. If laws are made because of religious beliefs, that will cause chaos. We need to have separation of church and state. Read what Thomas Jefferson had to say. And even more, look at the countries that have a national religion, whether it be Islam, Christian or Jewish. Totally tied in violence. So much for peace on earth, good will to all.

earthgirl -

Read the Declaration of Independence some time... "...all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

The laws that shaped our Constitution were a direct result of religious beliefs. Look at a piece of currency - IN GOD WE TRUST. Morality is what gives us freedom.

The government should stay out of people's personal lives... when it comes to the individual. The argument by those of us who oppose abortions is that abortion is not about the individual. The actions taken affect another life in a clearly detrimental way - namely, DEATH. Was this to prevent suffering on the part of the child, who wouldn't survive anyway? Was this to save the life of the mother? 9 out of 10 = NOPE. Birth control. I wish the same people who got up in arms about people who drown puppies would give half a rats hindquarters about unwanted children.

Tell me why it is that the 'fetus' is considered any more a life form once it has left the womb? It can't survive on its own - it needs outside help for the first several years! (Some require help well into adulthood, but that's a different subject.)

It's very convenient to de-humanize a developing child by calling it a 'fetus'. I'd like to challenge anyone who supports abortion to try to console a grieving mother who has had a miscarriage by telling her that it's okay, it wasn't really human.

I dare you.

carmen---God will judge you for passing judgement on her and bring you to justice for "SLACKING" in not talking to people about alternatives and prasing people for murdering others...Shame on you!

God will not be so slacking in serving justice for her killings.

Your problem is you believe in the Spaghetti Monster and how is that working out for you?

carmen has proved, she is mental... plain and simple

Yup, the fact people believe in the Spaghetti Monster pretty much sums up all that is wrong with the world.

Carmen, How arrogant, and blasphemous, of you to presume to know the mind of God.

JT ....

Yes, I'm still paying for your unemployment benefits either way, but you are a moron.

I have a severly disabled son and two daughters adopted from an orphanage. I have certainly not been slacking in telling others their options. I offered to take the twins, and she still killed them. I have volunteered at my local pregnancy support center many times. YOU are judging by saying I am slacking at efforts to educate others.

I have not passed any judgment on her. The bible says murder is wrong, her own actions have judged her. The Bible says we will know people by their fruits. Her fruit is murder.

Wow Carmen, I wil pray for you. You are very very sick. God loves you thank goodness because you sure make it hard for humans to tolerate you.

Carmen: Sorry that you missed out on twin nieces. We'd like to hear from your brother's girlfriend out of curiosity. But you prove my point, religious zealots are full of hatred s/o love, full of selfishness s/o giving. I just bet you would be the one to remind the twins they were conceived 'out of wedlock.' Now you have to be satisfied humiliating, demeaning and degrading the girlfriend. When you go to church, ask for God to forgive you. Read about humility. Meanwhile, have a good Christmas!